Landmines?

[henzington]

I am curious given that the UK, Germany, and Russia made use of landmines will they be represented in the game?

It was important in North Africa because of relatively small forces and the huge areas. The Germans even used them on the Normandy beaches although they weren't as effective because of ocean water.

 

[tazaaron]

No

 

[Victor Cortez]

Abstracted into some defensive bonus I suppose.

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

Yeah. Don't units get a "dug in" bonus if they stay in an area for a while? Wouldn't that include things like trenches, tank traps, landmines etc etc.

 

[Evilfisher]

I don't think the "dug in" bonus really would represent mines, and neither would building fortifications.. but maybe?

it would be interesting if they added more than just "build fortifications"available but maybe 2 different ones , light fortifications with small barriers and mines and heavy fortifications where heavy bunkers would be made. and the players could pick between the two. and if they lacked enough resources to make the heavy bunkers like germany did they could instead put mines at the shores or something like that

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

Why? The level of fortification already indicates that. The very light stuff, that can be made by any soldier with some sort of engineering brigade is basically the dig in bonus, and the fortifications have levels. Imagine the lower levels as wooden structures, some mine fields, etc etc and the higher levels as concrete bunkers, gun emplacements, death fields etc.

 

[csh-man]

I always wonder if question like this are intended to be jokes...

 

[tazaaron]

Tactical combat is abstracted in HOI. Either if mines are represented in dig in bonus or fortification levels that is where it belongs. Having it separate is crazy at this scale, even at the tactical level it is hard to implement with let's say 1 mile hexes, that's a big mine field even if you had 1/2 mile hexes and in HOI your attacking provinces. It needs to remain abstracted, don't want to be placing my 3,000,000,000 mines on the map.

 

[aruon]

what almost all of the above said. minefields are just too small to be abstracted. MAYBE could be some provincial modifier that causes greatly increased attrition for a time, or maybe it could be bundled in with a scorched earth modifier if such an option exists; but other than that, not happening.

 

[Shootist]

Landmines in a game of Grand Strategy?

For the love of God, why?

 

[Ted52]

Tactical combat is abstracted in HOI. Either if mines are represented in dig in bonus or fortification levels that is where it belongs. Having it separate is crazy at this scale, even at the tactical level it is hard to implement with let's say 1 mile hexes, that's a big mine field even if you had 1/2 mile hexes and in HOI your attacking provinces. It needs to remain abstracted, don't want to be placing my 3,000,000,000 mines on the map.

But muh historical immersion tho! *cry

 

[Axe99]

I think there's merit in asking the question. I'm no landmine expert, but I'd expect that over the course of the war the quality of landmines developed (for example, the development of non-metal mines that were harder to detect), and the number of mines used was huge. They also played important parts in many battles (Kursk, for example, where the Soviets used at least hundreds of thousands of them). These mines didn't magically appear out of thin air, and their design wasn't an ancient recipe handed down from generation to generation that didn't require any research, and they absolutely had a strategic impact. They're not as sexy as a Tiger tank, but they were significant in blunting the Tigers during Germany's early advances at Kursk, for example.

Given that HoI4 has research for infantry equipment, having landmines in the tech tree or even in production isn't a crazy thing to suggest. Unless it was the case that landmines were used equally, to equal effect, by all combatants, in all theatres (so can be assumed to cancel each other out), which was clearly not the case, then there's value in modelling them in the game in some way, shape of form.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the best approach is to individually produce and lay each type of mine separately . Some ways it could get in there are:

- A simple tech modifier, like winter/summer equipment. I personally don't like this approach as it means once you've developed it you've got free mines for all. It'd be the equivalent of giving infantry weapons for free.

- A simple tech modifier (maybe with a few stages - basic mines, advanced mines and non-metal mines?) and some kind of choice to equip theatres with mines, which then increased the supply requirement. So in the Western Desert, you can have extensive minefields, but if you want them, you need to ask for them, and get the supplies to have them. You could even have different levels of mine provision in each theatre (my preference). Then if a unit in a theatre is dug in, the dug in bonus is modified by the level at which land mines have been supplied. A similar approach could be to use the commanding general as the toggle for level of mines available. If you went crazy, you could make this a division-specific modifier, but that'd become a lot of work very quickly.

- Actually producing mines as a separate piece of equipment, and designating whether there would be defensive minefields in place at specific defensive positions. While the most accurate, this'd also add in a tonne of micro, so don't think it's a great idea.

Of course, the game'll survive without modelling the impact of landmines - the franchise has so far, after all . These are just thoughts for conversation.

Also worth noting that I'm pretty sure all major combatants used mines, and not just the UK, Germany and USSR. The US and Japanese definitely used them, and while my very rough research on the French is a bit sketchy, I'd be very surprised if they weren't involved in the Maginot Line at the very least. China is the only major I haven't been able to find anything on, but I haven't looked that hard.

 

[safe-keeper]

This is why I'd love for Paradox to make a Hearts of Iron-ish game that's on a level or two lower than HOI. That is, tactical or operational instead of a grand strategy game. You'd have a far smaller area to fight over or perhaps even combat scenarios like the Battle of the Bulge or the invasion of Sicily. You would still have HOI's system, but it'd be more in-depth, at the cost of the number of divisions under your control.

More on-topic, it would be nice to have slightly deeper dig-in mechanics in HOI. In HOI3 it caps at, I believe, 10 days. I'd like an option to have them keep digging in, at the cost of supplies and resources. This would simulate things like the extensive defense positions at Kursk, and you may not be able to build them everywhere, nor would you want to, but if you knew where the enemy was going to make his offensive (cough, compromised battleplans, cough), for example, it'd be viable to have your men start digging.

Also, I'm not entirely against techs for defensive positions. Not individual techs for each thing (such as mines, tank obstacles, etc.) but something like the "Infantry Support" tech in HOI3. Call it "Infantry Defense Positions" or something, I don't know all the fancy military terms .

 

[aruon]

and while my very rough research on the French is a bit sketchy, I'd be very surprised if they weren't involved in the Maginot Line at the very least. China is the only major I haven't been able to find anything on, but I haven't looked that hard.

i don't know about the maginot line, but throughout indochina the french had mined the hell out of that area since vietnamese uprisings prior to WWI (these are still found in laos/cambodia/vietnam today and occasionally still kill people). so the french definately did use landmines.

as for the chinese... no clue about the early 20th century, but the chinese definately DID use landmines in the 12th century! (they did invent the damn things after all)

More on-topic, it would be nice to have slightly deeper dig-in mechanics in HOI. In HOI3 it caps at, I believe, 10 days. I'd like an option to have them keep digging in, at the cost of supplies and resources. This would simulate things like the extensive defense positions at Kursk, and you may not be able to build them everywhere, nor would you want to, but if you knew where the enemy was going to make his offensive (cough, compromised battleplans, cough), for example, it'd be viable to have your men start digging.

this. if dig-in could be put to something ridiculous (or rather, more realistic) like 60+ or 100 days, with the right kind of defensive tech focus, trenches (really trench complexes at that point) could actually hinder tank-supported attackers, and further protected places like the magiot line could truly become a major source of irritation for the germans, who'd be all but stonewalled until french reinforcements could be cut off. it would also make a germany player think hard about choosing allies in the pre-war, because without italy to ruin the french plans, an invasion of france could become a true challenge, even with half of the german army heading to paris.

 

[takedown47]

what's wrong with landmines?

 

[aruon]

what's wrong with landmines?

they're too tactical for a GS game to handle in most ways.

 

[Axe99]

Also, I'm not entirely against techs for defensive positions. Not individual techs for each thing (such as mines, tank obstacles, etc.) but something like the "Infantry Support" tech in HOI3. Call it "Infantry Defense Positions" or something, I don't know all the fancy military terms .

I like this idea a lot - some kind of mix between a mechanical and doctrinal tech, by the sound of what you're suggesting. I'd still like some kind of supply cost for the actual mine use. Doesn't need to be a lot in most circumstances, but I'm sure the however many hundreds of thousands of mines were used at Kursk didn't grow on trees.

i don't know about the maginot line, but throughout indochina the french had mined the hell out of that area since vietnamese uprisings prior to WWI (these are still found in laos/cambodia/vietnam today and occasionally still kill people). so the french definately did use landmines.

as for the chinese... no clue about the early 20th century, but the chinese definately DID use landmines in the 12th century! (they did invent the damn things after all)

Cheers for the info (I saw that the Chinese had invented them, but couldn't find anything between the 'teens' and post-WW2, but that could just be because there's not a lot out there (and I wasn't looking terribly hard)).

this. if dig-in could be put to something ridiculous (or rather, more realistic) like 60+ or 100 days, with the right kind of defensive tech focus, trenches (really trench complexes at that point) could actually hinder tank-supported attackers, and further protected places like the magiot line could truly become a major source of irritation for the germans, who'd be all but stonewalled until french reinforcements could be cut off. it would also make a germany player think hard about choosing allies in the pre-war, because without italy to ruin the french plans, an invasion of france could become a true challenge, even with half of the german army heading to paris.

This sounds good, and then maybe add in a couple of tech levels and a supply cost for the higher levels of digging in (as well as perhaps some option to not dig in past the 'standard' levels for units that the player/AI doesn't want burning supplies on making fortifications - think French garrison in Casablanca in 1940, for example) and you've in-effect got landmines (and a few other things) in the game without making HoI4 into Landmine Management Simulator 2016 .

 

[Hans_Schnitzel]

this. if dig-in could be put to something ridiculous (or rather, more realistic) like 60+ or 100 days, with the right kind of defensive tech focus, trenches (really trench complexes at that point) could actually hinder tank-supported attackers, and further protected places like the magiot line could truly become a major source of irritation for the germans, who'd be all but stonewalled until french reinforcements could be cut off. it would also make a germany player think hard about choosing allies in the pre-war, because without italy to ruin the french plans, an invasion of france could become a true challenge, even with half of the german army heading to paris.

But what if you do not want to spend the extra ressources on having your men dig in more and instead prefer if they just stay at their ressource-free 10 day cap? You would need to be able to somehow tell your divisions "Do not heavily fortify this position".

Maybe a better way of handling it would be to still simply use the fortification-structure, but make it be built faster in regions with soldiers in order to simulate the soldiers helping with the construction?

 

[aruon]

But what if you do not want to spend the extra ressources on having your men dig in more and instead prefer if they just stay at their ressource-free 10 day cap? You would need to be able to somehow tell your divisions "Do not heavily fortify this position".

Maybe a better way of handling it would be to still simply use the fortification-structure, but make it be built faster in regions with soldiers in order to simulate the soldiers helping with the construction?

maybe there could be a "expanded dig-in" button in the divison interface? like with reinforment and upgrade prioritization. that would work easily enough

and what materials would be expended with auto-building trenches? I don't mean like a fully fortified complex with concrete pillboxes and command centers, i just mean 1000+ people with trench shovels digging away and creating a veritable maze or corridors. more or less exactly like WWI.

 

[gnome109]

What about sea minefields, perhaps have ships on "minesweeping duty"?