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unmerged(537594)

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Apologies for the long newbie question, but land combat results in my current DW 5.1 games (as England, starting 1399, on hard, currently 1496) are really puzzling me. I have played a lot of EU II and some EU III 5.0, and have not seen this before.

Background: I have had three wars, principally against Burgundy, in the last 50 years. My Land Tech has been either equal, or 1 less than Burgundy's over that period (currently 10 v 11). Currently,

Burgundy's Morale, at full maintenance, is 2-star, 3.748
England's, also at full, is 2-star, 4.119

Burgundy has the Glorious Arms and National Conscripts ideas
England has Church Attendance and Military Drill

Burgundy's Quality position is -3 (favouring Quality by 3)
England's is the same

Burgundy's ruler has a two-star military rating
England's (Henry V) has a four-star rating

Neither England nor Burgundy have any special Military Court Advisors.

I have England, Scotland, Ireland and half of France, only 3.5 infamy and 65% legitimacy. Burgundy has half the provinces I do, 17,5 infamy and 100% legitimacy

Burgundy's Generals in War #1 were marginally better (typically 3-3-1-2 vs 2-1-0-2) and in wars #2 and #3 about the same (eg 4-5-1-3 v 4-3-1-6)

War #1, 1450-1457. The Morale War. Each combat, initially between roughly equal stacks, numerically, started with England's morale bar about 60% green, and Burgundy's 95% green. The only way England could win a battle, was by starting numerically superior by 200-250%, or by feeding in reinforcements during the fight to approximately the same numbers. If England won such a battle, they could expect to lose 50% casualties, 12,000 men. Burgundy would also lose 50%, 4-6,000 men.

If the Burgundians lost, they would retreat. Even if immediately pursued, they would fight again in their next province at around 33% morale, for a month or more. Unless reinforced, they would usually lose, but the English would lose as many men finishing them off. Occasionally, they might win!

If the English lost, they would retreat. The Burgundians always pursued (smart AI) and as soon as everyone reached the new province, the English had 0 morale, and promptly lost all of their men without inflicting a single casualty.

War #3, 1495-current. The Quality War. Each combat, initially between roughly equal stacks, numerically, started with England's morale bar about 90% green, and Burgundy's 95% green. The only way England could win a battle, was by starting numerically superior by 200-250%, or by feeding in reinforcements during the fight to approximately the same numbers. If England won such a battle, they could expect to lose 60% casualties, 18,000 men. Burgundy would lose 30%-50%, 5-8,000 men. (Stacks were bigger)

If Burgundy won, the English were usually wiped out, or nearly, and the Bugundians lost 1-2,000 men.

War #2 (1470-ish) was a mixture of behaviours between positions #1 and #3, almost as if progressing between them.

So, my question is, is this an AI advantage gained from the Hard difficulty setting, or am I doing something wrong? It is dispiriting to keep (marginally) losing each war, and seeing Burgundy advance relentlessly, with no-one apart from me standing up to them, and no apparent costs other than a very bad rep (which nevertheless doesn't seem to cause the other AI countries to DoW them) and 11% inflation (which will hurt them eventually, maybe).

When I have wars with other countries with the same Land Tech and force mixes as Burgundy (eg France or Sweden, 50% Latin Knights, 50% Men at Arms) I usually beat them comfortably, using just the same tactics that seem totally ineffective against Burgundy. My armies are 60% Longbows, 10% Men at Arms, 20% Chevauchee and 10% Latin Knights).

Any answers or even informed speculation, gratefully received!
 
Last edited:

smellymummy

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too many long bows and chevauchee i think.

iirc they have low defense ratings compared to men at arms and knights, and it's my experience that unless i have superior forces (morale, tech, discipline more than numbers) it's much safer to have those early units with some defense ratings. especially against an early burgundy which often seems to have these huge stacks of cavalry that will deal out huge amounts of shock damage
 

brifbates

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You didn't mention it, but the lucky nation setting could be playing a key role in the outcomes you are seeing as well. Unless you have it set to none Burgundy is reasonably likely to be "lucky" with a player-controlled England.
 

unmerged(537594)

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OK, thanks for the replies. I did wonder if my chevauchee/longbow mix was the problem. Of course, in this era, longbows ought to defend the hell out of heavy cavalry and heavy infantry (Crecy, Agincourt, Poitiers?), but hey, those are the stats given by the designers, and I can accept that. Beats me why I can beat France or Aragon say, on the same settings, though. In-battle I mean, not just overall. Burgundy does have heaps of cav in their stacks, but I naively assumed that would just hurt them by losing the combined arms bonus.

And I don't fight with even numbers. I concentrate all my forces (maybe three stacks) on a single Burgundian stack, with similar General ratings (at least in War #3). I'm not sure how you mean "use manoeuvre and terrain to my advantage, except by "getting there fastest with the mostest". Aside from the casualties in-battle, I get crucified with attrition as well, but it's the only way I can even win a single battle. Terrain I am probably guilty of not exploiting, as I usually am in political view.

Not sure what the "lucky nation" setting is. New in DW? Burgundy is sure lucky, alright!
 

jdrou

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Not sure what the "lucky nation" setting is. New in DW? Burgundy is sure lucky, alright!
Luck has been in the game since v1.0; the only real change is that starting with the first expansion (Napoleon's Ambition) you could select 'historical', 'random', or 'none' as options. The original version was equivalent to 'random' (which would often make Burgundy lucky).
 

unmerged(180647)

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As this is, apart from the lucky nations setting, a matter of morale, let me point you to a place that lists all the morale modifiers in a land battle I hope:
http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Morale
Although it says not be up-to-date, I found the information that is given there is still correct for DW5.1

As England or GB, the small boost from "empire" is easily achievable, while usually the land/naval slider will be moved to right. It is often missed that especially early in the game, the 0.5 morale from full prestige is quite important.

When you described the Burgundian leaders, it is interesting to notice that the second value (the shock modifier!) is always 2 pips better than those of your generals. Together with the fact that they use Cav-only or at least Cav-majority stacks, that explains the massive morale losses they inflict on your troops.
 

unmerged(537594)

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I have read the Wiki, and much was as I thought or have worked out in the last few days, except:

Difficulty Level: On very hard difficulty, the player loses -0.25 morale and the AI receives a 0.5 bonus

That could explain a lot, as I have not played DW on hard before.... Anyway, I have concentrated on quality, and with the recent tech 11 I get Gallogiach (sp?) infantry which seem to slice through enemies, especially with the Shock:6 Generals I am now getting. Haven't tried my luck against Burgundy yet, but I don't expect it will be long before they DoW me again!