Land Combat Battalions

[Secret Master]

With battalions in the mix, I'm hoping for some granularity that goes beyond "mix and match" like we had in HOI3.

In HOI3, with a five brigade limit, division design boiled down to very binary kinds of of construction. TFH was great, but you still had to make decisions like "We either include a brigade of AT or ENG, because we only have a very small number of brigades possible."

I'm really hoping we can make division design decisions like "I want every division to have an ENG battalion, and still have some AT guns, some artillery, and some other stuff."

 

[tommylotto]

Names and pretty icons aside, what would be the actual gameplay/statistical characteristics of, and distinctions between, all these various battalion types? What would be the development cost of teaching the AI to use all these different types of units intelligently?

Never underestimate the value of names and pretty icons... But that aside, balancing the different statistics and attributes of the different units is not too hard. You can see the old ICE mod or TFH mods like Black ICE, Downfall, RPM 2 and my humble mod Fox and Lion for several successful examples where large numbers of new units were added without knocking everything out of balance. In fact, new units are essential to make historical OOB's without knocking things out of balance. My mod was mostly focused on Italy, which in 1936 had a really big (and bad) army. Vanilla makes Italy's OOB unhistorically smaller and gives it binary divisions instead of triangular. This causes Italy, in game, to be historically craptastic, but in an unhistoric way. With CCNN militia and conscripts/second line infantry, you can give Italy an historically accurate OOB and still get craptastic performance from an AI Italy. As far as AI builds are concerned, I have no idea what podcat has in store for HoiIV, but it was relatively easy to mod the scripts to cause Hoi3 to build my new units. I am not a programer but rather a lawyer with free time on my hands that taught himself how to mod. Here are some units built in my mod by the ENG AI:

So, as you can see, you can cause the AI to build interesting units, but building intelligently is another question. As mentioned above, even in vanilla China will build infantry with AT even if Japan does not build tanks. So, Vanilla had a problem with programming the AI to build in reaction to its opponents. AI Germany builds the same army regardless if Stalin goes with a militia zerg horde or IS-1's. I suspect that with HoiIV and division templates might make this easier, but frankly that is way above my pay grade.

 

[208]

Never underestimate the value of names and pretty icons... But that aside, balancing the different statistics and attributes of the different units is not too hard.

It's not only about balance, but also usefulness - March of the Eagles, for example, had lots of different unit types, but the problem with them was many of them were statistically identical (balanced!), so they just cluttered up the game and confused the player for no purpose.

 

[jamesd]

To the OP, there doesn't need to be that many types of units for a rich game allowing diverse historical OB's. I'd say:

Infantry
Reserve Infantry (incorporates garrisons and other second line troops who are better equipped than militia)
Militia
Cavalry (including bicycle infantry)
Irregular Cavalry (maybe, mainly for colonial troops)
Motorised Infantry (incorporating motorcycle troops)
Semi Motorised Infantry (hopefully unnecessary as I'd like to see movement at average rates rather than slowest rates)
Mechanised Infantry
Light Infantry - pack transport but lacking specialist Mtn, Mar or Par training - can be air transported
Marine Infantry
Mountain Infantry - can be air transported - includes HOI3 Alpini, Alpins etc
Airborne Infantry - includes Glider infantry unless we have gliders specifically represented

Light, Medium & Heavy Armour - no need for Super Heavy
Armoured Cars

Light, Field, Medium and Siege artillery - no need for coastal artillery, they're just artillery pieces - Light Art can be air transported
Mot Field & Mot Medium Artillery - mot Lt Art defeats the purpose and Siege guns should probably need fuel to move anyway - SP versions of indirect fire artillery like the Wespe and Bishop are included here
Rocket & Mot Rocket Artillery - rockets and larger mortars (eg 120mm Mortar)

AT, Mot AT, SP AT & Light AT - SP AT includes the early German PzJg and US open topped M10/M36 etc, light AT is air transportable
SP Art, Assault Gun, Hv Aslt Gun, TD, Hv TD - SP Art are low velocity artillery pieces on SP mountings that are not fully enclosed but designed for close support near the front lines eg SiG 33 - Assault Guns are low velocity fully enclosed artillery pieces, TD are fully enclosed high velocity artillery pieces
AA, Mot AA, Light AA - light is air transportable

Engineers & Motorised engineers - combat engineers
Pioneers & Motorised Pioneers - lesser units that assist with digging in on the defence, but have less firepower
Police, Motorised Police

 

[unmerged(159022)]

Some more units for the US:

Marine Raiders (4 battalions created and fought)
Marine Paratroopers (3 battalions trained and fought, never did a combat jump)

Only 6 Ranger battalions saw combat (out of the 7 created), seems the US just didn't see the need for a lot of these special troops.

 

[jamesd]

Some more units for the US:

Marine Raiders (4 battalions created and fought)
Marine Paratroopers (3 battalions trained and fought, never did a combat jump)

Only 6 Ranger battalions saw combat (out of the 7 created), seems the US just didn't see the need for a lot of these special troops.

In the context of HOI 4, is there any real difference:
between Marine Raider battalions and Marine battalions?
between Marine Para battalions and Para battalions?

The Ranger battalions deployed to Europe were effectively marine commandos weren't they, which could just be represented by marines? I'm not aware of them performing any airborne operations.

 

[unmerged(159022)]

In the context of HOI 4, is there any real difference:
between Marine Raider battalions and Marine battalions?
between Marine Para battalions and Para battalions?

The Ranger battalions deployed to Europe were effectively marine commandos weren't they, which could just be represented by marines? I'm not aware of them performing any airborne operations.

In the context of HOI 4 the only real difference between the three is that the Raiders weren't trained to do airborne operations like the Marine Paratroopers and Rangers, even though neither the Rangers or Marine Paratroopers ever did any combat drops. In reality they all had basically the same mission as well.

Rather than include those 3 units in HOI4, it'd probably make more sense for US Marines to just be better than regular marines of other nations, have it be their special unit.

Regardless, my original post was just more ideas for some sort of special US troop type, since they really just lack special units like the Waffen SS or Soviet Guards.

 

[D Inqu]

Regardless, my original post was just more ideas for some sort of special US troop type, since they really just lack special units like the Waffen SS or Soviet Guards.

How about following the historical realism and not have any magic "special units" the have nation-tag specific bonuses? The Soviet Guards were not selective or with special training, they were just an honorary title to a division in recognition of achievement. The SS were basically divisions with extra toys and a permanent "prioritised for reinforcement/upgrade".

 

[telesien]

What about combos, like: Super Heavy Bicycle Infantry?

Mad lib division designer?

I love that!!

 

[unmerged(159022)]

How about following the historical realism and not have any magic "special units" the have nation-tag specific bonuses? The Soviet Guards were not selective or with special training, they were just an honorary title to a division in recognition of achievement. The SS were basically divisions with extra toys and a permanent "prioritised for reinforcement/upgrade".

I may be in the minority on this, but I liked seeing the Guards, Waffen SS, Gurkhas, Rangers, Alpini, Alpine, and Imperial Guards in HOI3. They weren't magic special units, they just had a little bit better stats in a few areas that made them interesting additions. The Soviet Guards only had higher morale than regular infantry, not a big deal. The Alpine troops were just a little better in mountains that regular mountaineers. Rangers were just paratroopers with urban combat bonuses. Gurkhas were probably the most unique of all the units being airborne mountaineers.

Wouldn't bother me if they weren't included in HOI4, but it would be a nice to see those units represented.

 

[Secret Master]

You missed a few important differences between the elite units and regular ones.

Rangers, alpine, and Ghurkas also have INF penetration ratings instead of special forces penetration ratings. This doesn't even address the night combat bonuses for Japanese Imperial Guards.

Then there's the whole "Waffen-SS can't upgrade to MECH" issue.

I don't think they are particularly overpowered, but I found them a bit unwieldy and odd.

 

[unmerged(159022)]

You missed a few important differences between the elite units and regular ones.

Rangers, alpine, and Ghurkas also have INF penetration ratings instead of special forces penetration ratings. This doesn't even address the night combat bonuses for Japanese Imperial Guards.

Then there's the whole "Waffen-SS can't upgrade to MECH" issue.

I don't think they are particularly overpowered, but I found them a bit unwieldy and odd.

I didn't mention the penetration differences because they weren't worth mentioning, in my opinion. It really only mattered vs light armour, as anything heavier both regular infantry and special forces cannot penetrate anyway, combined with the rarity of light armour vs medium, it's just not even on my radar as a bonus. In all the games I've played vs people and AI, light armour is about as common or possibly even less so than heavy armour.

I don't see any issues with the Imperial Guard night combat bonus either.

The Waffen SS definitely should be able to upgrade from Mot to Mech, was kinda weird that they didn't.

 

[Secret Master]

Except that minors often either have light armor or really weak medium armor. And a common use of PARA is to drop on minors. And if the enemy has high tech TDs or AC, special forces can fail to penetrate even them.

I lost two Soviet PARA divisions last year because they dropped on Romania's VPs, only to find themselves dropping right on Romania's armor. Had I Ghurkas or Rangers attached at 1 per division, I could have won.

 

[farlite]

Building Divisions has always been a fun part of hio3 game for me, (yes I know I'm weird) and I like mods like black ice. For my part now that we are designing Divisions 1 battalion at a time, then any unit type that could be battalion size should be including in units you can pick from. I understand we don't want to get to complicated in unit types but we also don't want leave out any cool strategies or limit player tactics.

I also have question how are we going to use battalions that were independent to corps like Tiger Battalions, are we going to be able to attach battalion assets to leaders as well since were not have HQ's per say any more?

 

[misterbean]

I always thought that Rangers were jungle recon units?

 

[PlacidDragon]

I always thought that Rangers were jungle recon units?

Recon units in general (i think the specific designation is "Light Infantry"). The jungle is just one of many places they are employed

For example, there were plenty of US Rangers in Europe during WW2. Not much jungle there

 

[jju_57]

LMAO at much of this. My dad was in the US 3rd ID. Do you want to know how ranger battalions were formed? They took regular soldiers from various units and said: "Your in the 12th Ranger battalion for this operation". These units came and went for a specific operation. Just like most German Kampfgruppes. Many were temporary.

 

[tommylotto]

LMAO at much of this. My dad was in the US 3rd ID. Do you want to know how ranger battalions were formed? They took regular soldiers from various units and said: "Your in the 12th Ranger battalion for this operation". These units came and went for a specific operation. Just like most German Kampfgruppes. Many were temporary.

Not sure you and they are talking about the same Rangers...

From wiki:

Major General Lucian Truscott, U.S. Army, in liaison with the British General Staff, submitted proposals to General George Marshall that "we undertake immediately an American unit along the lines of the British Commandos" in 1942. A subsequent cable from the U.S. Department of War authorized the activation of the 1st U.S. Army Ranger Battalion.

After much deliberation, Company A, 1st Ranger Battalion was constituted on 27 May 1942, and Captain William Orlando Darby, a graduate of West Point with amphibious training, was chosen as its commanding officer. Promoted to major within weeks, Darby rose to the challenge of organizing the unit. Of the 1,500 men to volunteer for the original Ranger Battalion, only 600 were chosen. Eighty percent of these original Rangers came from the Red Bulls 34th Infantry Division. On 19 June 1942, Company A, 1st Ranger Battalion, was officially activated in Carrickfergus Northern Ireland.

A select team of four officers toured the existing commando training camps and selected the center at Achnacarry, Scotland for the Rangers. Here they underwent intense training. Coached by the battle-seasoned commando instructors (commanded by Colonel Charles Vaughan), the Rangers learned the basics of commando warfare. Five hundred of the 600 volunteers (83.33%) that Darby brought with him to Achnacarry completed the commando training. Many could not endure the exercises; one Ranger was killed, while several others were wounded in training so realistic that it was executed under live fire.

You missed a few important differences between the elite units and regular ones.

Rangers, alpine, and Ghurkas also have INF penetration ratings instead of special forces penetration ratings. This doesn't even address the night combat bonuses for Japanese Imperial Guards.

Then there's the whole "Waffen-SS can't upgrade to MECH" issue.

I don't think they are particularly overpowered, but I found them a bit unwieldy and odd.

I like the nation specific unit feature, but as you note, the way it is implemented is kinda weird. It is not thought out and, in my opinion, not really complete. However, it gave modders tools to do cool stuff. You can restrict units to specific countries, you can restrict the number of a type of units. You can give the unique unit a unique counter. Once you create an SS-Mech unit, making the Waffen-SS unit upgradeable to Mech-SS is just one line of code. To do the SS justice you need SS-Militia, SS-Infantry, SS-Motorized, SS-Mechanized, SS-Armor, SS-Heavy Armor, SS-Mountain, SS-Cavalry. A lot of those SS divisions were pretty poor and should be considered militia. The Soviet Guards divisions are tougher, because they were not created in a separate system, they were just regular divisions that proved themselves and were elevated to Guard status. But that is impossible (or really really difficult to simulate in game). So, I would fudge it and allow construction of unique Guards units just so I can have some cool units with red counters with a sickle and hammer on it.

 

[jju_57]

Not sure you and they are talking about the same Rangers...

You're right. I'm reading History of the Third Infantry Division in World War II and it explains that there were ranger designations for special landing operation units. The 3rd ID being fully trained in sea invasions already had some of the training given to the "real" ranger battalions. These units were actually company sized but were given ranger insignia. They never left the command structure of the division.

 

[Secret Master]

Building Divisions has always been a fun part of hio3 game for me, (yes I know I'm weird)

You're not weird.

There's a reason I put a huge section on division composition in the HOI3 strategy guide. Not only is it important for gameplay, but a survey of threads on the forum reveals it is one of the most discussed topics.

It was also fun to write, but that's a whole other topic... (Katukov is such an ass to the junior officers, but his snarky comments were great fun to compose.)