Land Combat Battalions

[No idea]

That's pretty much how I feel about so much different types. It's ridiculous, and an army certainly didn't have so many distinctions. Also, about support units, it's rare that a unit had only artillery or only anti tank, etc, and it should be a mix.

If we take things down to battalion level there were artillery only units (even if they got two different calibers), not a mix of art, aa and at (even if that might also be the case).

 

[Gamer_1745]

I am very happy if many of these are only in mods/DLCs. What I think 'we' want is the ability to have many types of Battalions that can make up a division. I am not sure how infantry and cavalry will be model in the game. Since you wont be producing tucks, my guess is that you will produce 'infantry man kits' and 'motorized infantry man kits' to fill up infantry bats & mot infantry bats. So will we also produce cavalry trooper kits (man w/horse)?

So for the Arab Legion & Saudi Arabian cavalry I would like to have Camel Cavalry (like horse cavalry but without desert attrition). So by having a Camel Cavalry unit it should auto fill that unit with the right type of troops.

So for a recon unit (as part of a division) if I specify it as a Bicycle Infantry, Motorcycle Infantry, Cavalry or Armored Car it auto sends the right replacements ( the developers or modders can use tags that match types). So I can be producing many types of 'kits' and they auto fill new units & replacements based on the tags assigned to the units & kits.

Yes, it is also for player immersion.

 

[Jadelith]

I think we should be able to recruit individual soldiers and... here comes... NAME THEM! ZOMG

and in hoi5, we can go down to cellular level, and micro which proteins the cells of individual soldiers should produce, and when. If we manage to do a good job with it, we should get a 0.0004% combat bonus. If we decide to let the AI handle it, it can give all your soldiers instant ebola.

 

[Melichai]

I think we should be able to recruit individual soldiers and... here comes... NAME THEM! ZOMG

and in hoi5, we can go down to cellular level, and micro which proteins the cells of individual soldiers should produce, and when. If we manage to do a good job with it, we should get a 0.0004% combat bonus. If we decide to let the AI handle it, it can give all your soldiers instant ebola.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel about it - until they get to name each individual soldier some people wont be happy.

At the level of a grand strategic wargame, the difference between some of these suggested battalion types are meaningless. The various "SS-InsertBattalionHere" are a prime example. Have a good spread of base units, have the rest dictated by doctrines and thats that. I do not want a production screen that goes on for page after page of pointless fluff units. There is certainly a market for this sort of micro-detail, but mods cover it.

 

[tommylotto]

My love of multiple unit types long predates Black ICE, but rather goes back to DiDay’s ICE and Common Weapons DLC and was carried over into my own mod.

I partially would agree with many of the commenters that poo poo the various unit types when the basic building block was the REGIMENT. However, now that the basic building block in the BATTALION, all bets are off. My inspiration is Dr. Leo Niehorster’s excellent OOB site.

As far as I am concerned, if it is on this chart and appears in historical OOB’s in battalion strength, I’d like to see it in the game

Motorcycle Battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/41_organ/41_div-corazzata.html

Bicycle Battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/41_organ/41_div-cav.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/037_czechoslovakia/organ/div_fast.htm
http://niehorster.orbat.com/081_sweden/1943-organ/_43_inf-div.html (and a regiment!)

AA battalion, AT battalion, ART Battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/42_org/42_inf-div_arty.html

Mortar battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/41_organ/41_div-inf.html

Armored Engineer battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/013_usa/44_org/div-arm/_armd-div.html

Armored Car Battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/013_usa/44_org/div-arm/ad_cav__sqdn.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/012_ussr/41_organ/40_tank-div.html

Machine Gun battalion
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/42_org/_42_inf-div_me.html
http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/40_organ/div_autotrans_40as.html

Flame Tank Battalion (I have to add this one!!!!)
http://niehorster.orbat.com/012_ussr/41_organ/40_tank-div_tank-rgt.html

I am puzzled by the conscript battalion. Is it not covered by militia? If we bear in mind pretty much 90%+ of the armed forces of every combatant nation was conscripted in WW2.

Maybe conscripts is not the best name. Maybe “bad infantry” is more descriptive. In my mind militia is a bunch of guys with guns without much military structure. Conscripts/bad infantry is a regular military unit, but based upon poor training, equipment and motivation are craptastic. I am thinking most of Italy’s infantry divisions.

Mounted militia are a bunch of guys with guns on horseback. I’m thinking Poncho Villa.

In my mod, militia could be upgradable to light infantry but not paratroopers. Conscripts/bad infantry, being regular military, given the right equipment, training and motivation could.

 

[tommylotto]

What about combos, like: Super Heavy Bicycle Infantry?

 

[jodirola]

yes the militia are only guys with weapons and no military training, and the conscripts in most of the armies during wwi & wwii was the base of the units, they are the base of the reserve units, the fully soviet divisions are composed by conscripts, even the guard infantry are only a descriptive name like the SS.

I like the variety of battalions and the fully division organization, thats why in black ice forum i all the time insist in the 3 main 6 support division organization hehehehe because that is what differentiates between the divisions in different armies, tommylotto i was thinking in that OOB site hehehe, for me its one of the best pages of wwii OOB

the only unit that is useless in the list are the super heavy tanks, super heavy td, because in wwii there was only prototypes no more than 6-8 units of each prototype, not much for a batallion

 

[D Inqu]

My guess is that militias would be like the Volksturm, some military training and sometimes composed of men not normally accepted into the regular army. Conscripts would be just random peasants with few rifles herded into the general direction of the battlefield. So the conscripts would be the HOI equivalent of medieval levy. Whether or not these should be included in the game is another matter.

Only those never existed, like ever. Even in medieval times the idea of throwing completely untrained personnel into battle was not very popular.

 

[Opanashc]

Why does everyone think that conscription = bad soldiers? All it describes, is how the army is filed with personnel - volunteers or specifically selected men (100% selection is still selection). Motivation and training have nothing to do with it.

 

[D Inqu]

Why does everyone think that conscription = bad soldiers? All it describes, is how the army is filed with personnel - volunteers or specifically selected men (100% selection is still selection). Motivation and training have nothing to do with it.

And virtually every army in WW2 was conscript.

Also, on-topic, I hope we finally do away with "nation specific units" nonsense. It's a disgusting crutch and completely unrealistic.

 

[Opanashc]

Also, on-topic, I hope we finally do away with "nation specific units" nonsense. It's a disgusting crutch and completely unrealistic.

The flavor is nice, but that's it. What would be nice, is if countries like N.China would stop building divisions with AT in them - they have no one to use it against.

 

[jodirola]

the conscripts are not more than a reserve infantry unit type, the difference between these two is that the base infantry has an active duty, and the conscript is a reserve unit.
but, during wwi & wwii the conscript practically was the base of all armies but depending of which army they had their own name, but in general terms they are peasant, workers, students, men that join the army when the war start, so the training depending on the country army, they had a different time and type of training and get deployed, soviets in the start of Barbarossa only training 1 month and deploy the troops, thats why in only 6 month of war they had been deploy 33 armies a total of 297 divisions (fully conscripts)

 

[Opanashc]

jodirola, if in December of 1941, 3 million men invaded continental US, with thousands of tanks, US would have had to field a LOT of divisions with similar type training.
Can ANY nation sustain a multimillion men army, paying them enough to sustain a family, without financially ruining itself? No. Hence, they use the draft, and get conscripts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription.
Are full-time soldiers better at their job? Yes. Are they more expensive? Yes. Can they fight a large protracted war? No. Casualties and all that.

 

[jodirola]

uhmm, ok i accept my ignorance about the conscript info, i was wrong on their duty

 

[tommylotto]

Maybe conscripts is not the best name. Maybe “bad infantry” is more descriptive.

There is no need to get hung up on the name. I admit that conscripts is not a good name. I really mean just bad infantry or maybe "second line infantry" such as many of the poor Italian infantry divisions or such as the 12th, 23rd and 46th British Infantry Divisions as part of the BEF.

http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/40_org/inf div/_inf-div.html#div-12

The 12th, 23rd & 46th Infantry Divisions
In March 1940 it was decided that these three second line divisions should be sent to France for pioneer duties building Marshalling yards, airfields and depots. Only the infantry and engineers were sent with a skeletal HQ organization and minimal service units, ('A' Echelon divisional supply column, one field ambulance, one field hygiene section, a detachment of divisional provost company, and the divisional postal unit), There was no question of using these formed but untrained bodies for fighting. The divisions left in the United Kingdom all Royal Artillery units, bulk of Signals, and part of the Administrative Units. Every man had a rifle but only half had even fired one. The infantry had about a third of their established amount of LMGs and it was a fortunate battalion which had more than 4 Brens to a company instead of the normal 9. There was a slender ration of Boyes antitank rifles but no 3 inch mortars, no Carriers and no battalion signallers.

 

[Beagá]

The flavor is nice, but that's it. What would be nice, is if countries like N.China would stop building divisions with AT in them - they have no one to use it against.

The bigger question really IMO is if they should even be able to build AT in the first place, as they didn´t have the industry. Besides, Japan does like to build AC and a human player might want to build light armor - so again, there is the issue ofthe AI not being reactive in HOI 3. AI/player Japan only going infantry? Then AI China should get a clue and build accordingly.

 

[208]

As far as I am concerned, if it is on this chart and appears in historical OOB’s in battalion strength, I’d like to see it in the game

Names and pretty icons aside, what would be the actual gameplay/statistical characteristics of, and distinctions between, all these various battalion types? What would be the development cost of teaching the AI to use all these different types of units intelligently?

 

[safe-keeper]

^^Agree with 208. As cool as it'd be to see it all in-game, gameplay-wise I'd be less enthusiastic. Many of the things on the chart can be abstracted pretty effectively.

 

[Dark Jakkaru]

In reviewing the new Division maker tools you can create the same myriad varieties of division make up by tweaking the battalions involved. We don't have to go back to the way mods in HOI 3 had to make clones of units as the game made it essentially impossible to replicate something as simple as '44 Panzer Division with a battalion of Panthers and PIVs each. I wager if you are really itching for specialized units, then just equip that battalion with the specialized equipment you want them to have, i.e. motorcycles for Battalion A, Armored cars for Battalion B, Panzer IIIs in Tank Battalion I & 2, Panzer IV in Battalion 3, etc.

With the way the new game will play just by looking at the dev logs, it's going to have some real tough choices on what to equip the divisions you have and to properly outfit every blob on the map. HOI IV is shaping up to be a bit more intuitive to play where you can spend all day looking at the map and requesting units in your own private computer bunker. Just be sure the map pointer has a good attitude if you start looking for Steiner on the map ...

 

[Had a dad]