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unmerged(11294)

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all thats going to happen now is that england will ally with habsburg to rape france...as if france isn't gangbanged enough. so now itll be more unhistorical with england being spain's friend and fighting france along side spain and austria. england now will depend on spain to help it not get invaded. now spain will interfere with poor portugal's tangiers and influence africa and probably make a run into the timbuktu region and possibly control most of north africa, mexico and SA. stronger spain and weaker france...great idea. it's easy for spain to waltz into africa now and muscle portugal around. turks will be forced to expand elsewhere to avoid war with iberians. theyll go to persia and india(like most already do). so 1419 scenario is just worthless for france even more now.
 

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King of Men said:
Quite so, think about that scenario. Just how much of a chance would England have stood, historically? That's why England was always the premier balance-of-power player in Europe : To prevent any such alliance from coming to pass. That's why Trafalgar was such a decisive battle, because it prevented the Spanish navy from linking up with the French, and thereby creating a force capable of defeating the Home Fleet.

Don't take this in the wrong way, just want to clarify the battle of Trafalgar since the Spanish and French fleets did combine and fought Nelson.

Napoleon during 1805 planned to have the French fleets in Brest and Toulon with the Spanish fleets in Cartagena and Cadiz break out of their blocade and link up in the West Indies. All this was in preparation for the invasion of England.

Nelson chased the combined Fleet to the West Indies but lost them and returned to Europe and discovered that the Combined Fleet of Spanish and French warships returned to Cadiz. Nelson waited for them to make their escape, but at this time Napolean had cancelled his invasion of England and ordered the Combined Fleet to the Mediterranean. Nelson moved in to strike when the Combined Fleet set sail. When the Franco-Spanish fleet caught sight of the English Fleet, they turned around and offered battle. Nelson in a completely unorthodox tactic decided not to turn and split his fleet into 2 column's and split the Franco-Spanish fleet into third's and defeated them in detail.

You also have to remember that the English were outnumbered by a fair number of ship's of the line during this battle. This battle basically assured naval dominance for England for the rest of the war and decade's beyond.

Duma
 

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WOW. This is a post I can sink my teeth into!

Broadly speaking, I'd say that 30km is a bit far to have straits. I'd like only much narrower straits than that, unless there's a gameplay reason to include them.
Cleanthes said:
Indonesian Island straits:

Malacca Strait, Jehor to Jambi province in the game (Malayan peninsula to Sumatra).
Width of strait = 15.6 kilometers and swimmable to fit athletes.
Although this one would only really matter in the mods, I think it's worth including.
Cleanthes said:
Bali Strait, Surabaja to Bali in the game.
Width of strait = 3.7 kilometers and swimmable by me, probably.
Obviously, it should be in.
Cleanthes said:
Sape Strait, Flores to Bali in the game
Width of strait = 14.8 kilometers
Seems reasonable to include it.
Cleanthes said:
Ombai Strait, Flores to Timor in the game.
Width of strait = 29.6 kilometers
That's a bit far in my book.
Cleanthes said:
Manipa Strait, Buru to Ceram in the game.
Width of strait = 22.2 kilometers
Doesn't make much difference, but I'd say no.
Cleanthes said:
Philippine Island straits:

Surigao Strait, Samar to Mindanao in the game
Width of strait = 27.8 kilometers
Seems too wide for me, although it would be nice in the mods... so maybe yes.
Cleanthes said:
San Bernardino Strait, Mindoro to Samar in the game (Luzon Island to Samar Island)
Width of strait = 3 kilometers
Gotta include that.
Cleanthes said:
Elsewhere in the Pacific:

Tsugaru Strait, Ezochi to Tohoku in the game (Honchu to Hokaido in Japan)
Width of strait = 18.5 kilometers
No, for gameplay reasons. Ezichi was quite isolated from the rest of Japan during most of this period.

Let me take this moment to include an obvious point that I've brought up in the bug report forum - Kyushu/Kansai should be a strait, not a land connection.
Cleanthes said:
Hainan Strait, Hainan to Guangdong in the game
Width of strait = 24.1 kilometers
It's probably too far, although I'd perhaps include it just to give China a break.
Cleanthes said:
Cook Strait, Timaru to Taranaki in the game (North to South Island, NZ)
Width of strait = 22.2 kilometers
A bit far for my taste, not that it matters either way.
Cleanthes said:
Dampier Strait, Wewak to Raboul in the game (New Guinea to New Britain)
Width of strait = 24.1 kilometers
See above.
Cleanthes said:
Isla San Estaban Strait, Empalma to Ensenada in the game (Sonora to Baja via the islands forming the Sea of Cortez)
Width of strait = 12 kilometers
eh... seems sketchy. I have no good reason why.
Cleanthes said:
Atlantic Straits:
Strait of Belle Isle, Gander to Belle Isle in the game (Newfoundland to mainland Canada)
Width of strait = 16.7 kilometers
How easy is it to cross that on a raft? I'm inclined to guess it wouldn't be easy. Do you have any historical background here?
Cleanthes said:
Strait of Canso, Nova Scotia to Isle Royale in the game (The Canso causeway, nowadays)
Width of strait = 1.5 kilometers
Obviously should be in.
Cleanthes said:
Dominica Pass, Dominica to Guadaloupe in the game, I guess, although in reality, Dominca is in between Guadaloupe and Martinique so it would be ever so much better if provinces 148 and 149 switched names. In any case, these islands have the least separation in the Lesser Antilles:
Width of strait = 29.6 kilometers
Just leave them as independent islands, if you ask me.
Cleanthes said:
Aruba Pass, Curacao to Tocuvo in the game (Curacao to the mainland)
Width of strait = 27.8 kilometers
A bit wide for my taste. Totally changes the nature of the province, too.
Cleanthes said:
Strait of Magellan, Magallanes to Tierra del Fuego in the game
Width of strait = 2.5 kilometers
I suppose that's gotta be in, although the currents are notoriously treacherous there, right?
Cleanthes said:
Mediterranean Straits:

Corfu Channel, Corphu to Albania in the game
Width of strait = 5.6 kilometers
Good for gameplay, I think.
Cleanthes said:
Strait of Bonifacio, Corsica to Sardinia
Width of strait = 11.1 kilometers
I think it should be in, although the two islands were never owned by the same power since... gosh... the Romans? Is there any history of attacks across the gap?
Cleanthes said:
Rhodes Channel, Rhodes to Antalya in the game
Width of strait = 16 kilometers
I think it shouldn't be in, for gameplay reasons.
Cleanthes said:
Kithera Strait, Crete to Morea in the game (Crete to Kythira Island, separated from the mainland by the narrow -5km- Porthmos strait)
Width of strait = 7.4 kilometers
if this is in, you HAVE to make sea province 1008 border Morea. This has always bothered me, by the way: if you own Morea, you can't stay in friendly waters while sailing around it.
Cleanthes said:
Indian Ocean Straits:

Bab el Mandeb, Aden to Issas in the game (southern Arabia to Africa)
Width of strait = 16.7 kilometers
I like it.
Cleanthes said:
Palk Strait, Colombo province to Madurai in the game (Sri Lanka to India).
Width of strait = 5.5 kilometers and easily swimmable by anyone in good condition.
Gotta be in.
Cleanthes said:
Zanzibar Channel, Zanzibar to Tanga in the game
Width of strait = 31.5 kilometers
No way, I say.
Cleanthes said:
Gulf of Bahrain, Bahrein to Damman (nowadays the King Fahd causeway)
Width of strait = 9.6 kilometers
I like it.
Cleanthes said:
Okay then, this is as complete as I could make it - this is every strait narrower than the Dover Strait that matters in game terms. I've probably overlooked an obvious place though, so please I'd like to see corrections to this list.
The only ones that come to mind (which may or may not qualify) are:

- What's the distance from Kamchatka to the Aelutians? Just curious... I know that there's 7 ocean squares in the game. Which is completely absurd, by the way.

- the aformentioned Kyushu/Kansai, which is about one kilometer wide at the narrowest, I think. It should be an "invisible strait" like Venice currently is in the latest patch.

- Straits of Hormouz?

- The "Nile" province and the "Sinai" provinces could be strait-connected so that you don't need to go through Egypt.

- What's the distance on the Hawaiian Islands? Probably too far.

Great job putting that together.
 

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doktarr said:
- What's the distance from Kamchatka to the Aelutians? Just curious... I know that there's 7 ocean squares in the game. Which is completely absurd, by the way.

Definitely NOT a strait. I was stationed on Adak Naval Air Station for 2 years and we were 500 miles from civilization. :( :wacko:
 

Corruption

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I think that this change will allow a challenging SP game as England. Now, your life depends on navy and diplomacy, requiring you to fight for your life to protect the home isles.
 

Nikolai II

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doktarr said:
I think it should be in, although the two islands were never owned by the same power since... gosh... the Romans? Is there any history of attacks across the gap?

IIRC Pisa owned both at once too, somtime during the CK timeline too, so it might be in one of the scenarios.
 

cynos

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Galleblære said:
Well, it IS a beta patch after all, and in the coming weeks we will find out if some of the straits should be removed. I agree that the land access to North Africa might be unbalancing, but I am yet undeceided on the english channel strait.

I don't know...

...I think of the evacuation of Dunkirk, and the incredibly small vessels used there, and I think of people swimming the English Channel...


...and I think, would've have been that hard to commandeer a few hundred fishing boats to travel to England?

And then I think, no, not really.

So, instead of building galleys(!), or waiting till naval tech whatever to build transports, the England-Calais strait just represents how they normally did it. Small boats, lots of em... ...my 2c, maybe they never did it that way.
 
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unmerged(33397)

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DaRaskalKing said:
I'd argue that at this point the "land bridge" is really more accurately described as "a place where we can just build little boats with our troops and sail across because it's not all that dangerous."

The English channel NOT dangerous :confused:! Tell that to Philip the second and the sailors of the Spanish Armada 1588........ :D
 

Hive

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Duuk said:
Now, in the mind of the English player, he needs to think, "You know, I might want to keep Calais."

I admit that I, in MP, all too often see England give up Calais either for free or for a small price, to be able to peaceful hypertech/trade/colonise. But like BiB says: that's a problem with player mentality.

And there's a lot of those. Now while I'd like to see something change that, I don't think that the key is altering geography beyond all historical reason. The price is not worth it - and add to that the fact that I, just like BiB and others, don't believe that this will actually help the least bit. Far from.
 

Hive

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Nikolai II said:
IIRC Pisa owned both at once too, somtime during the CK timeline too, so it might be in one of the scenarios.

I think they only owned half of Sardinia though... not that it matters much in this discussion, but eh... :D

Yippeeyippeeyai said:
What actually is wrong with this anyway......its what really happened!!!! more or less :D

No... the English would much have prefered to keep it, and they did NOT sell it or give it freely in any way...

Personally, I'm currently playing England in an MP game - and already before it's start, I decided that if France wants Calais, he'll have to take it from me in war. This fact haven't changed due to the new patch, it shall not be surrendered without a fight.
 

unmerged(33397)

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Hive said:
No... the English would much have prefered to keep it, and they did NOT sell it or give it freely in any way...

Yes, they did not sell it or give it away....they lost it in war, when allied with Spain. But it was the way in which they lost it...they practically gave it away without a real fight!
 

unmerged(23437)

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Yippeeyippeeyai said:
What actually is wrong with this anyway......its what really happened!!!! more or less :D
Almost. A roughly historical England would refuse to take territory on the Continent, but would nonetheless be heavily involved in the Continental powergames. So *only* teching, trading and colonising wouldn't be accurate.

This is why I wouldn't play MP even if I could -- I suck at diplomacy.
 

unmerged(33397)

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Wooster said:
Almost. A roughly historical England would refuse to take territory on the Continent, but would nonetheless be heavily involved in the Continental powergames. So *only* teching, trading and colonising wouldn't be accurate.

This is why I wouldn't play MP even if I could -- I suck at diplomacy.


:p :D
 

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Hive said:
And there's a lot of those. Now while I'd like to see something change that, I don't think that the key is altering geography beyond all historical reason.

Well - it is not _beyond all_ historical reason, only pretty far-fetched. :D
 

Hive

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Nikolai II said:
Well - it is not _beyond all_ historical reason, only pretty far-fetched. :D

It's more than "pretty" far-fetched... when is the last time a foreign power succesfully invaded England? 1066? There's a reason for that...

I really hope that these straits will be removed again. And I hope Johan won't look too much at many of the proposals laid forth for additional straits earlier in this thread... Crete-Morea? I mean, what the... :eek:

If all of Venice's islands are connected to OE mainland, who will want to play Venice? Not me, they won't stand a chance. And it's silly and ahistorically.

Don't change EUII into CK, where you don't need navies to transport troops. The current system with navies work well, let's not make them completely obsolete.