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unmerged(59077)

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LF always worked.I went for laissez-faire because it relieved me from industrializing. I could focus on the social and political aspects of the game to try them. All you have to do is to accompany the capitalists.

If you have to accompany the capitalists, it does not relieve you from industrialising. You have to do more work for a lesser result, so what's the point? Social engineering is far harder than switching ruling parties, building several factories, and then putting on interventionism to subsidise about a quarter of them.

With LF you would not only have less factories, you'd have useless factories, and they'd keep closing because they didn't make a profit for a few days erasing years of investment. And add to that the need to keep taxes low and the tarrif limitations...so you have a poor government that's actually incapable of enacting reforms or doing much of anything.

In short, state capitalism -> interventionism is more efficient than LF AND allows you large state income. In 1848 was making +500 a DAY with Russia, despite continuously building infra and ships and armies and having most spending optimised while taxes fairly low, and procurements at max.

I suppose Paradox is going to listen. Not because their game mechanics are flawed but because people simply do not like them. LF works well but it does not correspond with most people's expectations on what LF is supposed to be.

People expect LF to be competetive with state capitalism even in the short-to-medium run, whereas now, if it is competetive at all, it is only so in the long term.
 

Yellowjacket

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What do you think? Is this assessment correct? And if yes, what could be done about it? Reading this, one thing that comes to mind would be making the efficiency (speed and/or scope) of mobilization dependent on a country's industrial score.

seems correct to me. I remember somebody posting about wiping GB out of Zululand and conquering most of the eastern world.

They did it by focusing on military techs and military might and completely ignoring their economy.
 

Al. I. Cuza

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LF works fine for me most of the times. The capis blow much more resoures as they build many unprofitable factories, but they are cheaper than in interventionism and you have one less thing to worry about.

Anyway, I agree with the fact that you can't afford LF in poor countries. There you will always need to focus on cement and steel early on so you get a basis on which capis can build.
 

unmerged(169164)

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If you have to accompany the capitalists, it does not relieve you from industrialising. You have to do more work for a lesser result, so what's the point? Social engineering is far harder than switching ruling parties, building several factories, and then putting on interventionism to subsidise about a quarter of them.
It relieves me from managing the process of industrializing the nation. I dont need to think about what factory to build etc All I have to do is see the capitalists' choices and adapt according to them.

Social engineering is part of the game. The era was one of deep changes. Trying to lessen the after shocks. Reduces dramatically the number of rebels.
Switching parties is very efficient and nice but it does not translate into a population ready to accept or wishing changes.
With LF you would not only have less factories, you'd have useless factories, and they'd keep closing because they didn't make a profit for a few days erasing years of investment. And add to that the need to keep taxes low and the tarrif limitations...so you have a poor government that's actually incapable of enacting reforms or doing much of anything.
LF allows to fill up states with eight factories all upgraded to level four (5+)

Very often, liberal parties are in favour of laissez faire. But all liberal parties do not have the same approach to trade policy. Some support protectionism, others support free trade. There is no limitation on tariffs.

Taxation can be improved through technology research.
In short, state capitalism -> interventionism is more efficient than LF AND allows you large state income. In 1848 was making +500 a DAY with Russia, despite continuously building infra and ships and armies and having most spending optimised while taxes fairly low, and procurements at max.

LF also allows large state income.

People expect LF to be competetive with state capitalism even in the short-to-medium run, whereas now, if it is competetive at all, it is only so in the long term.

It is competitive in the medium run and long run. Short term, it might be really hard as the player can build all the factories at once in a state. And it takes a healthy population of capitalists to be able to build as much as that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sokoto, Ethiopia fill the page as poor countries in my book. Cement factories are not always profitable. Etc...
 

Al. I. Cuza

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Cement and steel factories are indeed only profitable if you have some coal or iron in your country, that much is true. But there are only a few countries who miss coal all together.
 

unmerged(94026)

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PLZ correct me if i am wrong.
As I observed the problem for AI capitalists choosing factory is that they pick those factories whose output is in high demand, regardless whether the selling price can compensate the cost and/or whether the input resources are available.
In my PRU-GER game, in the beginning it's the annoying canned food factory that was being kept build and shut; after 188x or 1890 all my state are keeping building and shutting down automobile and plane factories. They (AI) don't accept the fact that electric gears are expensive. Of course as no factories are actually consuming electric gears, electric gears are not in (that) high demand and no one ever invested in electric factories.

I don't hate L-F IF ONLY AI capitalists are a little smarter at choosing their investment. PLZ let them consider the gain and cost, not just the high demand...
 

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Wrong. I only played a civilized nation so far: Sweden. I played six or seven uncivilized nations.

LF always worked.I went for laissez-faire because it relieved me from industrializing. I could focus on the social and political aspects of the game to try them. All you have to do is to accompany the capitalists.

Industrialization demands two prerequisites: a highly enough literrate population and a artisan population numerous and wealthy enough to support the effort of industrialization.

If you dont have them, the game will devolve. If artisans are not numerous and not wealthy enough, the first stage of industrialization is already compromized. If the nation is not litterate enough, clerks wont show up and more advanced technology factories need a large population of clerks to be profitable. For some time, I thought that there could be an issue with LF as some industries never showed up in the latter game. But in the couple of latest games, they did. I went through the steps of literacy and bourgeoisie revolution and for example, barrels were decided when the technology was available.
If you do not work on these two aspects, the wall is the next stop for your economy.

Another point: infrastructure must be well thought before being introduced. It can kill industry.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1- Well, too much perceived as a bad thing. Hard to tell how capitalists make their choice but in all cases, it does not correspond with most players' perceptions.

2-Industrialization is supposed to come as a competitor to artisan production.
Ah, capitalists are not supposed to have a national conscience but a selfish conscience. They go for what they perceive as good for themselves, not what is good for the country. That is for the other economical regimes.
And eating on an already well established market is always a surest adventure.

3- Maybe not. I already told in the same thread the little experiment I ran. It looked conclusive. Factories are too little of a sample to draw any conclusion on that. My understanding of it is that it influences the starting chances. So +30pc on an activity that has -35 chances to start with might lead to nowhere.

4- They somehow used the banks as the savings come from the POPs. Whatever, it was mostly an economy running on capital built up on savings.
In my last game, I played Sokoto which comes with four starting states. I focused on only one because I had only one NF point. Something comes up.
The capitalists there opened three factories, all working very well. At this point, they stopped working on projects. In every other states, capitalists were trying to open factories to fail. It was interesting because I reached a (meta) equilibrium in this state and I could focuse on the others if I wanted.
Capitalists too slow to gather their resources is the sign that they are not numerous enough and not wealthy enough. And it is part of the game to increase their numbers.

5- Because industrial production killed artisanal production.

6- Stockpiling is more designed for times of war. Many other factors allow to work on the inputs. They are the way to go to support capitalists on their path to industrialization.

7- Already answered. Still, interventionism is here for that.

8- I thought the same. But when I hovered over the location name of a craftsmen pop in the population screen, I could see that populations moved. They moved to national provinces in a slightly higher ratio than they demoted (depending on savings) and in a much higher ratio to colonial provinces.
People migrate. They do not migrate in such a way though that 20000 people suddenly laid off could disappear in a trice.

I suppose Paradox is going to listen. Not because their game mechanics are flawed but because people simply do not like them. LF works well but it does not correspond with most people's expectations on what LF is supposed to be.

To respond to some of these:

2. I understand that industrialists sought to replace artisans, and having them make factories for already-established goods makes sense. However, the mechanics of the game don't allow this to necessarily work since well-established goods are likely to have a higher supply than demand, meaning that it's going to be difficult for those factories to make a profit and survive.

3. NF points work when it comes to encouraging growth of certain POPs, though it's underwhelming when it comes to immigration and seems completely broken when it comes to encouraging factory growth. You can experiment all you want, but when I encourage capitalists to build basic industry and they keep jamming canneries and wineries in the queue year after year, it's broken.

4. Part of the reason the capitalists are broke is because they keep chosing factories for goods that have an unprofitable or saturated market. Or, they choose a profitable good but can't afford the inputs and the factory goes bust after a month. That's a waste of capital.

5. Like I stated in 2: correct theory, horrible execution.

6. Having a stockpile for war only is fine, but if I'm trying to establish a stockpile for a certain good and the POPs and factories keep buying it up, it's not helpful. The ability to open up one good and close off another instead of opening or closing the entire market would be helpful.

7. I understand the purpose of intervention, but as I stated in my opening sentence, I am playing as Mexico which has a laissez faire government to start, and inability to choose ruling party. My hands are pretty well tied unless I really mess up the country to cause a change in government style.

8. I hadn't really notice them move much. If they do, then I retract my statement, but it would be nice if I could track that somehow through the tooltip... perhaps get a better breakdown to see which POPs are immigrating and where.
 

unmerged(169164)

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For point 3, a conclusive answer would require to know what the basic chances are.

Because as I understand it, it adds +30 pc chances to the starting odds.
Even with that bonus, a wished factory could still end lower chanced than a non wished factory.

Retelling the little experiment: I colonized two states in Africa (in places I was used to), populated and put on each of them an incitation for electrical gear and automobile productions (double experiment protocol)
The one with electric gear ended with a much larger proportion of artisans involved in electric gear and the other in automobile. Looks to me like an evidence of influence.

Another remark: in the numerous games I had, up to a point, I never had barrels to show up under LF.

I sat down and wondered why. And started a new game to experiment. I focused on getting the best conditions for capitalists, which included working on the input/output thoughtfully, not upgrading the infrastructure for the sake of upgrading, getting a healthy and large population of capitalists, getting a large number of clerks.

Guess what? The barrels showed up. They showed up. Without any NF influence. It told me that some factories have heavy requirements that might strongly determined their construction. So yes, you add 30 pc to a production, but it might be added to zero because of the heavy requirements. Therefore coming behind other factories whose starting odds are better.
 

unmerged(41083)

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seems correct to me. I remember somebody posting about wiping GB out of Zululand and conquering most of the eastern world.

They did it by focusing on military techs and military might and completely ignoring their economy.

This is because anyone can buy guns from anyone else. In this game there is nothing crucial about having a basic armaments industry (although having first preference on steamer convoys does make building a navy easier).
 

Al. I. Cuza

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This is because anyone can buy guns from anyone else. In this game there is nothing crucial about having a basic armaments industry (although having first preference on steamer convoys does make building a navy easier).

It makes sense to have your own arms industry if you go to war with nations like GB (who can blockade you instantly).
 

NapoleonI

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Laissez-faire is BAD

After some decades of fascist rule I for role playing reasons decided to end the game as a democracy. I had passed all social reforms and wanted to give my people some well deserved political freedom as well. That turned out to be a big mistake. They voted for a liberal party. First thing that happened was that my income dropped to -350.000 per day (that is bad). Next thing that happened was that my industrial score went from 145.000 to 75.000 in little more than a week. It was still dropping rapidly when I quite the game for today.

With a minus 350.000 gold per month I will have to put my social spending slider very low. That means my POP won´t be able to afforded the goods that the factories produce. More factories will close and people will get unemployed. Instead of paying factory subsidiaries I will be paying unemployment subsidiaries.

So what has this game thought me? Two things. Fascism is great and a free market will ruin your economy. I love Paradox games because they are not always politically correct. But this is a little extreme even for my taste :)

Very well. The 1.2 patch did wonders for this game. But there is still some tweaking to be done.
 

Sovetskysoyuz

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If what happened was lots of factories closing suddenly, it's probably factories that you were keeping alive through subsidies going bankrupt once the subsidies are withdrawn. L-F actually gives factories a 10% bonus to output, so it is actually better for your economy assuming that your economy can survive without subsidies.
 

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If what happened was lots of factories closing suddenly, it's probably factories that you were keeping alive through subsidies going bankrupt once the subsidies are withdrawn. L-F actually gives factories a 10% bonus to output, so it is actually better for your economy assuming that your economy can survive without subsidies.

In theory, yes. But that is never the case in the game. Fascism and communism is always better.
 

NapoleonI

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In reality a factory can lose money for years without having to shut down, due to shareholders and banks putting in more money (as long as it is economically sound). And if there is really nothing to be done in the long run, the owners sell the factory or parts of it. Which means that other companies can benefit. Problem is that with Laissez-faire in Victoria II all is lost in a single day as soon as the numbers turn red. A free market works well in reality since it prevents assets from being tied up in none lucrative businesses. In Vicky II assets doesn´t move on, but is vaporized. To illustrate a real economy a part of the factory that closes down should go into another factory that is lucrative, so that when one shuts down another will grow. Or at least the factory should be scraped for parts that can be sold by the former owner.

Laissez-faire is not fair to capies :)
 

Veovis

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Playing as Spain I let the Anarcho-liberals win a rebellion, and the ensuing bourgeois dictatorship completely ruined my economy, causing everyone to become unemployed and join up with the AL rebels! Not only were they fighting for a government that was already in place, they were fighting for one that was ruining everything! That made me scratch my head.

Finally jacobin-ed them out and never looked back.
 

Magirot

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Fascism and communism is always better.

State Capitalism is better than Planned Economy, which would make the fascists better, but as they have residency as the minority policy, the really best parties are usually socialist.

But yes, as all economy of Vicky 2 hinges on subsidies, I don't know why anyone would want laissez faire.
 

sortulv

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Laissez Faire is great in a socialist paradise - when you have lots of pensions and unemployment subidies. (at this point your pops will be able to continue purchases even if a single factory shuts down...)
It would have been even better if there was a reduction in build/expansion times.
 
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