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True_Sef said:
we need a bit more than just z-axis. We need z-rotation (roll left right)
Sure, 3-D space combat is becoming a niche market, but i hardly think that the joystick on a pc is anywhere near obsolete. I've always had a joystick (or two) and i think that modern joysticks are even better than ever! Man, if i could have had my saitek X52 back in the days of wing commander, or chuck yeagers air combat... The genre is NOT dead, theres lots of us space/flight junkies out there, Anyone who posts on this forum is a testament to that, but if you step back and take a look at what's being said, the "Target Market" you hope to sell this game to still exists. But you've made it angry. I just cant understand how the developers could miss/ignore/overlook/forget something like this? Have you ever played a space/flight sim with a joystick? This is my favorite genre of all game types out there. I've been anticipating this game for several months simply because so few come out. The last quasi decent game to come out was Darkstar One, but even that had lacklustre joystick support.
I dont mind making a profile for some of the functions, but ANYTHING pertaining to moving the ship should have full analog joystick support. Throttle, Roll, Pitch, Yaw, Rudder, etc. I dont care about button assignments, but the AXIS have to be supported.
I could set z-rotation to the a and d keys in my profiler, but still, due to the design of the control i can not control the speed that i roll.
Please tell your art staff that you wasted their efforts. The game looks great, but the "pretty" doesnt make the "useless" aspect any better.
Like i said in my previous post: I feel like i'm being sold a car without a steering wheel, and the throttle is controlled by the signal light switch. Full blast, or off.
Really makes you wonder if the sales guy knows anything about cars...
When will i ever learn?
I have a keyboard and mouse for fps's and rts's. I use a steering wheel for racing games and a flight yoke for simulators.
A new space sim comes out and i get really excited about another chance to conqueur the stars. i then spend hours stareing and swearing at the screen as i attempt to get my Flight yoke to work. I never have this kind of difficulty getting my steering wheel to work on a racing game! What do you people talk about in the many meetings you must have on the way to producing a game like this?!
Which bright spark proposes the non inclusion of support for hardware that that is designed to work with the style of game you're working on? Who agrees with him/her?!
One day I'll learn that you should never, ever buy a game before at least the 3rd patch. Cos maybe by then the lazy designers and greedy producers will have got around to including everything needed to use their product properly!
Does my intense dissappointment come across?
I have a keyboard and mouse for fps's and rts's. I use a steering wheel for racing games and a flight yoke for simulators.
A new space sim comes out and i get really excited about another chance to conqueur the stars. i then spend hours stareing and swearing at the screen as i attempt to get my Flight yoke to work. I never have this kind of difficulty getting my steering wheel to work on a racing game! What do you people talk about in the many meetings you must have on the way to producing a game like this?!
Which bright spark proposes the non inclusion of support for hardware that that is designed to work with the style of game you're working on? Who agrees with him/her?!
One day I'll learn that you should never, ever buy a game before at least the 3rd patch. Cos maybe by then the lazy designers and greedy producers will have got around to including everything needed to use their product properly!
Does my intense dissappointment come across?
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O.k. That's the rant out of the way.
i have to agree with bravo911. We need z-axis and z-rotation. it's simply pointless to steer left/right with the joystick and then have to press buttons for rotation. the whole point of a yoke is the fluid feel of the controls. The immersion factor is lost as soon as you are reminded that you're playing a game. I use an x52 and can map buttons easily to any part of the stick. but without that crucial axis support than there's no point cos the game's simply broken - or ,at best, badly designed.
Like the man says pretty can't fix broken { nice line!}
i have to agree with bravo911. We need z-axis and z-rotation. it's simply pointless to steer left/right with the joystick and then have to press buttons for rotation. the whole point of a yoke is the fluid feel of the controls. The immersion factor is lost as soon as you are reminded that you're playing a game. I use an x52 and can map buttons easily to any part of the stick. but without that crucial axis support than there's no point cos the game's simply broken - or ,at best, badly designed.
Like the man says pretty can't fix broken { nice line!}
Moonwatcher said:Does my intense dissappointment come across?
I sense great anger in this one
Seriously, I can tell you are all feeling quite invested in the hope that a good space sim will come out and let you play with full joystick support.
Just keep your hopes and wishes civil, all of you.
Let me just point out that this really isn't a bad game at all. I've enjoyed it so far, but indeed it would be greatly enhanced with full joystick support and they say they are working on it. Hopefully soon
Cobopolies said:Let me just point out that this really isn't a bad game at all. I've enjoyed it so far, but indeed it would be greatly enhanced with full joystick support and they say they are working on it. Hopefully soon
It IS actually a very good game despite of the bugs it has..
Now.. it would be great if, at least, let u set up the jostick buttons :wacko:
And i agree with bravo911 about the z-roll. I use a PS2 jostick wich has 2 analog sticks, the left one works for x/y axis but the right one does nothing... It would be awesome if i could use the right analog to at least roll the ship.
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Just want to add my voice to those hoping for robust joystick support. The game looks great, the story seems a little unique, and I'll be looking forward to playing it, assuming there is a joystick patch in the works.
Timur Lazarenko said:
Thank you for your reply! I am glad you're taking out criticism seriously (you'd be fools not to since it directly affects your cash flow
).I have to say, though, in spite of the optimism of it, your message makes me worry. The previous highlights of the space combat genre (Wing Commander, Privateer, Descent Freespace, X-Wing/TIE Fighter, Tachyon: The Fringe, I-War, to name a few stellar titles) have all been developed by people and studios with not only a great passion for but also a deep understanding of the genre. Your reply, though, make me fear that you have made another Darkstar One or Rogue Universe - the two latest space fighters, both lacking integral joystick support and realistic vehicle dynamics.
Perhaps you can successfully retrofit a proper joystick control system, but that you hadn't this planned already from the onset suggests that you actually do not understand the space combat genre, and that is NOT something that can be retrofitted into a title.
I am not trying to bash you or something, only tell you that you are targeting a niche market with very demanding and discerning consumers. Since the competition is low you have a great potential for earning (see X and X2), but if your game is not up to some rather high standards, it will on the other hand create much more resentment, anger and devestating word-of-mouth than in most other genres.
wonderswan said:Thank you for your reply! I am glad you're taking out criticism seriously (you'd be fools not to since it directly affects your cash flow
Maybe you would be surprised, but being developers we haven't get any cash flows from titles sells (and this is a typical situation for most developers all over the world) since it's the privelege of the publishers
And we still haven't any cash flow from Dark Horizon as well. However we are trying to do our best - and not for money, but for our players - actually the guys we created this game for. And that's a sincer, man.wonderswan said:
Every of your words is truth, man. We cannot make all things that core fans want to see in game just right now. It's a bit late for. But we haven't primary targeted this audience since we've tried to make game accessible for more wide audience - not for money actually, but for trying to bring stars and space in games to other people. And there was a little sacrifice regarding joystick support directed by budget restrictions, although. And as we can see now, that's was our fault. But not only our, since we sharing it with our publisher Akella. And that's why we are really have to appologize to our hardcrore fans.
But one thing I promise still - we will try to make joystick support at maximum of our possibilities. Not for the money indeed. Not for any other reasons besides the love and respect to guys, who loves space, stars and adventures, since we are, as well. Some years ago we were gamers, like you; and have played X, Starlancer, Freelancer, Freespace, Homeworld. But we've forgot some significant things about. About guys, who love and play them more deeply, than we were, with more demans than we had. That's was our basic fault. And this is a good lesson for us for future - to be aware of this kind of audience and be in contact with them regarding gengre specifics. And we are thankfull again for your comprehensive critics. And we thankfull again for your patience. Since it is not simple to work in budget restriction and make things like this very quickly.
We will try to find any possibilities to make proper and heavy joystick support in November, even more maybe in December. I know, that's a long way to... but I hope you can understand.
Thanks.
Timur Lazarenko
Director/Producer
Quazar Studio
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Thanks for your replies Timur. I'm really looking forward to playing this game once I can use my Saitek joystick.
A little hint/warning/request/whatever: please make sure that for the Saitek X52, speed increase/decrease works on the actual throttle stick and not one of the sliders, as in Starforce Rogue Universe. Can't play without proper throttle support. Thanks.
A little hint/warning/request/whatever: please make sure that for the Saitek X52, speed increase/decrease works on the actual throttle stick and not one of the sliders, as in Starforce Rogue Universe. Can't play without proper throttle support. Thanks.
Yeah I was going to buy this game but finding out I can't use the Throttle on my X52 you guys can forget it! I am a space sim junkie and there are far and few between space sims any more, the fact a key component such as Z axis support was not included proves to me that the devs don't know what a real joystick is! When this comes out with a patch that allows me to play with the X52 I will prolly buy it, not before. Sorry paradox maybe you should have asked what the community wanted and not just yourselves.
Back to X3 for me!
Back to X3 for me!
Timur Lazarenko, I too would like to add my thanks for your sincere reply and your humility, which is very becoming in this day that is increasingly dominated by marketroid buzztalk, politic lies and handwaving. This is good community management, and appreciated.
I look forward to see you do the best of this title, however, I would like to add a few points.
First, I'd ask that you do not mention Starlancer and Freelancer in the same sentence as true space combat games: for space combat simulator fans those games were horrible abortions. Lacklustre uninspired attempts by MS to cash in on the then shining genre (X, Freespace 2), they had a horrible principally mouse-only interface oriented to 3rd person camera that made the game a repetitive arcade tedium and removed you from feel of your ship. They also didn't implement a believable mechanics to the craft. I blame these games for if not killing then at least savagely maiming the genre.
Secondly, I would argue that you can make a space flight sim that combines both wide-spectrum accessibility and caters to hard-core fans. F1 simulators do it all the time. Prove enough help systems that make it easier for beginners to pilot their ships, but that advanced pilots can benefit from turning off. You do not make a game accessible by shaving away its depth, you make it accessible by helping with learning. Least-common-denominator titles are fast and easily forgotten, but stellar games are played and (payed for) for decades.
I look forward to see you do the best of this title, however, I would like to add a few points.
First, I'd ask that you do not mention Starlancer and Freelancer in the same sentence as true space combat games: for space combat simulator fans those games were horrible abortions. Lacklustre uninspired attempts by MS to cash in on the then shining genre (X, Freespace 2), they had a horrible principally mouse-only interface oriented to 3rd person camera that made the game a repetitive arcade tedium and removed you from feel of your ship. They also didn't implement a believable mechanics to the craft. I blame these games for if not killing then at least savagely maiming the genre.
Secondly, I would argue that you can make a space flight sim that combines both wide-spectrum accessibility and caters to hard-core fans. F1 simulators do it all the time. Prove enough help systems that make it easier for beginners to pilot their ships, but that advanced pilots can benefit from turning off. You do not make a game accessible by shaving away its depth, you make it accessible by helping with learning. Least-common-denominator titles are fast and easily forgotten, but stellar games are played and (payed for) for decades.
wonderswan said:
Thanks, man. Good things.
But you know, I do not like Freelancer personaly, but I know a couple dozens of friends who does. And this is a good starting point for making space games more acceissible for people. Yes, devs did a lot things _too_ casual, but people plays it and people loves it still. So, I think we have to remind about. We are not alone here
And as for our own, we are really want to find a good balance between hardcore space players and more casual space players. Hope we will, since we are on the way.
Showstopper...
I agree with everybody else here, I was really looking forward to this game and was actually about to goto the store today before I found out about incomplete joystick support.
Essentially this is a showstopper, as soon as a patch comes out that addresses this issue I'll be buying the game, but not before. In all honesty this is INFINITELY more important than pretty graphics, I still pull out X-Wing Alliance from time to time... a game with almost 10yo graphics but has proper joystick support (throttle, x-y-z axis, all the buttons functional). Please make this the utmost priority and also please implement it properly.
Patiently waiting for a patch,
Nick
P.S. My joystick:
Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Pro USB
I agree with everybody else here, I was really looking forward to this game and was actually about to goto the store today before I found out about incomplete joystick support.
Essentially this is a showstopper, as soon as a patch comes out that addresses this issue I'll be buying the game, but not before. In all honesty this is INFINITELY more important than pretty graphics, I still pull out X-Wing Alliance from time to time... a game with almost 10yo graphics but has proper joystick support (throttle, x-y-z axis, all the buttons functional). Please make this the utmost priority and also please implement it properly.
Patiently waiting for a patch,
Nick
P.S. My joystick:
Microsoft Sidewinder Precision Pro USB
A Sliver Lining
At least the Dev's are paying attention. I have seen MUCH bigger titles from some of the most prominent names in game programming totally ignore the community after they had totally blundered a release, and basically 'ripped off' the consumers . And some that released patches, and STILL didnt address the biggest problems . Point: Be glad someone over there cares, cause once they have your money....
Anyway, alot of whining, and few solutions . I'm disappointed too, but "Hey, make it like this other game" is not a suggestion . And peeps harping on their 'siatek' whatever: The joystick support should be universal as per MS Direct Input. So, if your super-duper, high-tech, $4,000, multi-spectral, gyroscopically stabilized, telepathcally controlled flight stick is Direct Input compliant, then you should not have to worry. :rofl:
I agree with the programmer that posted, joystick support is easy and common. I dont believe the Dev when he said they arn't getting paid. Thats why I pay my mortgage, cause I dont live in my house :wacko: Right?
I would also like to note that the game does have one feature often lacking in flight games: Joystick sensitivity . I remember one game a few years back, X2 I think, anyway, regular flying wasnt a problem, but precise aiming was. The stick was just too sensitive.
So, everyone with a multimillion dollar controller probably has a profile program. If you have a PS2 clone gamepad you got for $3 USD 5 years ago (which still works flawlessly) you can use a program called 'Joy To Key'. Its free AFAIK albiet a bit old, it works under XP no problem (probably Vista too). Dont know if its still under development last ver I got was v3.7.9. The Dev's name is Ryo Ohkubo. Sadly, there is no sensitivilty setting, but it does have a threshold slider. Supports 6 Axis, and 32 buttons. Supports multiple joysticks, and game profiles. Its a real good temporary workaround. I've used it many times.
There is another program you can tweak your Direct Input with called DXTweak2. Sadly it also doesnt have a sensitivity setting either. It's also free AFAIK.
To the Dev's, we would love to see the following features added if possible:
X axis mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Y axis mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Z axis mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Z rotation mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Joystick buttons mappable to any function (for at least 16 buttons)
8-way Point of view (Hat) control mappable to any function
Invert X Axis option
Invert Y Axis option
Invert Z Axis option
Invert Z Rotation option
I guess thats all, its a mighty tall order, but it would so thrill us, the fans. The last time I saw sensitivity sliders was X-wing Alliance I think. Man I really loved flying in that game. I dont think I even recall them in MS Flight Sim X. Doesn't matter, I'm rambling :wacko:
I suggest though If you have some constructive suggestions, you make a LIST here. Probably some of you want other axis. Throttle maybe?
Colt
At least the Dev's are paying attention. I have seen MUCH bigger titles from some of the most prominent names in game programming totally ignore the community after they had totally blundered a release, and basically 'ripped off' the consumers
. And some that released patches, and STILL didnt address the biggest problems . Point: Be glad someone over there cares, cause once they have your money.... Anyway, alot of whining, and few solutions
. I'm disappointed too, but "Hey, make it like this other game" is not a suggestion . And peeps harping on their 'siatek' whatever: The joystick support should be universal as per MS Direct Input. So, if your super-duper, high-tech, $4,000, multi-spectral, gyroscopically stabilized, telepathcally controlled flight stick is Direct Input compliant, then you should not have to worry. :rofl: I agree with the programmer that posted, joystick support is easy and common. I dont believe the Dev when he said they arn't getting paid. Thats why I pay my mortgage, cause I dont live in my house :wacko: Right?
I would also like to note that the game does have one feature often lacking in flight games: Joystick sensitivity
. I remember one game a few years back, X2 I think, anyway, regular flying wasnt a problem, but precise aiming was. The stick was just too sensitive.So, everyone with a multimillion dollar controller probably has a profile program
. If you have a PS2 clone gamepad you got for $3 USD 5 years ago (which still works flawlessly) you can use a program called 'Joy To Key'. Its free AFAIK albiet a bit old, it works under XP no problem (probably Vista too). Dont know if its still under development last ver I got was v3.7.9. The Dev's name is Ryo Ohkubo. Sadly, there is no sensitivilty setting, but it does have a threshold slider. Supports 6 Axis, and 32 buttons. Supports multiple joysticks, and game profiles. Its a real good temporary workaround. I've used it many times.There is another program you can tweak your Direct Input with called DXTweak2. Sadly it also doesnt have a sensitivity setting either. It's also free AFAIK.
To the Dev's, we would love to see the following features added if possible:
X axis mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Y axis mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Z axis mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Z rotation mappable to any function (with seperate sensitivity slider)
Joystick buttons mappable to any function (for at least 16 buttons)
8-way Point of view (Hat) control mappable to any function
Invert X Axis option
Invert Y Axis option
Invert Z Axis option
Invert Z Rotation option
I guess thats all, its a mighty tall order, but it would so thrill us, the fans. The last time I saw sensitivity sliders was X-wing Alliance I think. Man I really loved flying in that game. I dont think I even recall them in MS Flight Sim X. Doesn't matter, I'm rambling :wacko:
I suggest though If you have some constructive suggestions, you make a LIST here. Probably some of you want other axis. Throttle maybe?
Colt
It is the year 2008, There is no execuse NONE to not have full joystick support. Im sorry but its not acceptable. If managment cant foresee that somone would want to use joysticks before a game is even thought of, then this company has some severe management issues
I only accept space sims with 100% joystick support, thats that, i will not be buying this game because of that.
in your future games, your planners should possibly start thinking of the people there trying to sell to, and not hide behind the idea that once somone buys it they cant take it back. good thing i did some research first.
I only accept space sims with 100% joystick support, thats that, i will not be buying this game because of that.
in your future games, your planners should possibly start thinking of the people there trying to sell to, and not hide behind the idea that once somone buys it they cant take it back. good thing i did some research first.
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Colt1911 said:
Thanks for your post and for the list. I think this stuff will be actually usefull, when patch time will come. And we definately will make some suggestions here, and to joy-passionate guys directly, good idea!
Timur, why developers think that players are some kind of dumb people who does not like "hard" games?. There is casual players, but there is also players who want deeper games. I-War 1 sold a lot, that was the reason because they released an expansion pack and a second I-War.
People buys good games with good marketing. Flight SImulator sells millions, and is not casual, X-Plane sells a lot, and is not casual, IL2 Sturmovik Series sold a lot, and it's not casual...
Why always are devs focusing the games for casual market?.
When you try to create a game for "all andiences", casual and "hardcores", you will not get happy neither of them.
People buys good games with good marketing. Flight SImulator sells millions, and is not casual, X-Plane sells a lot, and is not casual, IL2 Sturmovik Series sold a lot, and it's not casual...
Why always are devs focusing the games for casual market?.
When you try to create a game for "all andiences", casual and "hardcores", you will not get happy neither of them.