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kullenius

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Palle said:
Is it not possible to mod all the historical events to the game?
Don't seems like it right now. Havard says AI-files are gone and think it was Mr T that said it's impossible to script in kings and leaders in any way it was before. So it seems Paradox have put an effort to not make the historical path possible. Hope though that I'm just confused, or that the heroes of scripting will find a way.

Found part 1:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6425067&postcount=9
Q: I've already asked this, but perhaps here somebody can answer:
Is it possible to set specific preferences in national AI files, especially regarding colonization, but also e.g. in countries to attack, willingness to go to war, trading etc.?

Havard's answer: No.
 

KAding

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Hmm, my experience so far has been somewhat different from others apparently. In the two games I played so far, Portugal and Castille were the countries that colonized most of the New World. True, portugal started with Northern America, but Castille did indeed colonize most of Brazil and the Carribean. England had some colonies as well. I did not see minors create colonies, let alone colonial empires. Most of them couldn't afford to do so anyhow. Besides, they choose the national ideas (as did I) which where required to survive on the continent.

I agree the events were somewhat bland, but I have to admit I usually play fairly minor countries myself, like Georgia and Milan. It's not as if there were many AGCEEP events for them!
 

Palle

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kullenius said:
Don't seems like it right now. Havard says AI-files are gone and think it was Mr T that said it's impossible to script in kings and leaders in any way it was before. So it seems Paradox have put an effort to not make the historical path possible. Hope though that I'm just confused, or that the heroes of scripting will find a way.

Found part 1:
http://www.europa-universalis.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6425067&postcount=9
Q: I've already asked this, but perhaps here somebody can answer:
Is it possible to set specific preferences in national AI files, especially regarding colonization, but also e.g. in countries to attack, willingness to go to war, trading etc.?

Havard's answer: No.
Well that's bad news for everyone :( I guess extremely moddable means moddable graphics...
 

Palle

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KAding said:
Hmm, my experience so far has been somewhat different from others apparently. In the two games I played so far, Portugal and Castille were the countries that colonized most of the New World. True, portugal started with Northern America, but Castille did indeed colonize most of Brazil and the Carribean. England had some colonies as well. I did not see minors create colonies, let alone colonial empires. Most of them couldn't afford to do so anyhow. Besides, they choose the national ideas (as did I) which where required to survive on the continent.

I agree the events were somewhat bland, but I have to admit I usually play fairly minor countries myself, like Georgia and Milan. It's not as if there were many AGCEEP events for them!
This is my experience as well, based on one game.
 

kullenius

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Palle said:
Well that's bad news for everyone :( I guess extremely moddable means moddable graphics...
I think this is what makes me so sad. Being one who favours historical flavour I naturally think it would be a better game with events and countries that feels like what they are names as, but can understand that they took them out to try to get a larger market. But from that to hinder modders to make it into the game we historians love is just something I really fail to see why. I could for example have understood blank AI-files that could be moddable, but why remove that possibility? Well, I'm not a programmer, and hopefully miss out on something rather then Paradox just being mean too us historians :eek:o
 

colonelkadaffy

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Just thinking out loud here.

But theres a lot of 'events' in the history files (monarchs set to come in a a certain date, buildings to be built, wars to be started).

Surely theres a way in which the a.i would be encoraged to follow these.

Don't get me wrong i like the current ahistorical play, but a more historical option would be really cool.

My biggest gripe at the moment, isunt just that colonisation is ahistorical, its stupid, portugal and spain colonising poor east coast american provinces as a oposerd to the rich south american ones.
 

Grubnessul

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I think the whole colonisation issue is more an issue of the AI being dumb rather then being a-historical
 

colonelkadaffy

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I agree, it seems to just colonise the first thing it finds for the sake of it, instead of emulating history and going for the most comercially viable provinces.

France, England and chums had to stick with north america because they missed out on the south which was allready snapped up by spain and portugal.

The spanish main being literally chock a block full of gold.
 

unmerged(64717)

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If you start during a time where they exist, then you'll see them.

cheers
but if i started in 1453 i have not charles V......in euII if i started in 1419 i had charles V, henry VIII, henry IV, elizabeth I, Caboto, ivan III, luis XI, XII,XIII, XIV
try to understand what i say.... :rolleyes:
 

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colonelkadaffy said:
My biggest gripe at the moment, isunt just that colonisation is ahistorical, its stupid, portugal and spain colonising poor east coast american provinces as a oposerd to the rich south american ones.

Have they discovered the rich ones yet? They couldn't know that south is richer if they haven't found the gold yet could they? Of course if they know most of the American map then they should focus on the good provinces first.

I really doubt that "most of the community is unhappy with non-determinism in EU3", of course the unhappy ones are the loudest ones so it may seem so in these forums. I actually like what I have seen so far, but I wonder how people can bash the game when they have played it for like two or three days? Many complain after _one game_ which they haven't even finished and some people without even playing the game (or demo). Maybe we all should play a little bit more and then think about what should be modded and what not, after we see what the engine really can do.

Of course everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion and someone likes the new system worse and some better, but for example I'm not yet ready to give a score to this game because I simply haven't played it enough. I don't know what the new engine is capable of doing in vanilla version or with mods. And what comes to modding, there is still big uncertainty what can and can't be done, we'll just have to wait and see. I didn't have EU2 from the beginning so I have no idea what it was like to play vanilla EU2 after release, but it seems that people who complain against the new system are the ones who liked EU2 with AGCEEP, which certainly didn't exist at the time of release. I believe that similar efforts will be done for EU3 aswell.

Lastly, I you don't like EU3 way and like hardcoded event chains you still can play (and buy) EU2 and all the great mods.
 

Peter Ebbesen

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And yet another point of view.

I like the EU2 events. I liked them a lot. They were fun to read and it could be interesting to make your plans based on anticipated events. (And monarchs and leaders) I found the EEP, AGC, and later AGCEEP projects interesting and contributed in some small part a few years ago.

However, I never, ever, tried to pretend to myself or anybody else that they were truly "historical" or "made sense" as some of you claim when you lament their lot. They did neither. At best they taught me something about the history of this world, in which I live - they were never, ever, relevant to the game world in which I was playing, no matter how many event triggers were added in later projects to "guide you into doing the thing you should be doing to be historically plausible". Ultimately, EU2 "historical" events were, in game terms, ahistorical nonsense, a forced fit of "make this trend happen again, because it is the trend that should be happening, based on a singleton observation. Our history is rife with happenings that would be deemed "unlikely, not an acceptable historical outcome" if it weren't for one fact - that they actually happened.

Trying to guide an alternate history to broadly follow one particular set of unlikely happenings each game, while interesting, isn't a very good fit, and neither is the other typical EU2 modder's project "the player do what he wants so long as the AI does the 'historically right thing'".

Thus the design decision to write the new game engine (and it is rewritten from scratch, it isn't an "EU2 with features disabled" as some of you seem to believe when talking about "enabling X for modders again, why do you remove our freedom") based on the alternate model "get a historical starting position - and let the world develop from there with each nation trying to do its best in the situation it is placed" is - at least to my mind - much more historical than EU2 ever was, it is truly about creating history, not recreating it.

As for feeling more bland... The thing that made e.g France feel like France (to me) in EU2 was not getting a boatload of events that were either irrelevant to my position or an attempt to make me perform certain specific actions - it was having the French flag, being located in... France... Having the same natural enemies that France did due to conflicts of interest... or their successors, should somebody else prove triumphant.

I'll still miss some of the event texts, though, simply because it was more fun to read the often wacky descriptions of "historical" events and it would occasionally cause me to go look up the incidents described, something that the more generic approach is unlikely to - but overall that's a small sacrifice for something that ends up a better game with more competitive opponents, opponents that aren't hamstrung by myriads of competing directives trying to make them perform "historically".... It also means that I get events no matter which a nation I play. :)
 

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Peter Ebbesen said:
And yet another point of view.

I like the EU2 events. I liked them a lot. They were fun to read and it could be interesting to make your plans based on anticipated events. (And monarchs and leaders) I found the EEP, AGC, and later AGCEEP projects interesting and contributed in some small part a few years ago.

However, I never, ever, tried to pretend to myself or anybody else that they were truly "historical" or "made sense" as some of you claim when you lament their lot.

I don´t think anyone here actually believes that EU 2 was a historical simulation. I suppose you and others mean the same thing actually. When playing EU2 you learned a lot about countries, leaders, monarchs you never heard of before while having a lot of fun. Adding to that you had an AI that acted fairly reasonably as we know countries to act in real life given the specific position the nation had compared to what actually happened gave the game a very nice historical feeling.

Peter Ebbesen said:
At best they taught me something about the history of this world, in which I live - they were never, ever, relevant to the game world in which I was playing, no matter how many event triggers were added in later projects to "guide you into doing the thing you should be doing to be historically plausible". Ultimately, EU2 "historical" events were, in game terms, ahistorical nonsense, a forced fit of "make this trend happen again, because it is the trend that should be happening, based on a singleton observation. Our history is rife with happenings that would be deemed "unlikely, not an acceptable historical outcome" if it weren't for one fact - that they actually happened.

At least the events were tied to something that had happened and nobody claimed that the events were anything else. Nobody can seriously believe you can construct a game that will react to every choice a player does; that is impossible. However compared to blatant fantasy events more or less cleverly invented that will trigger for any nations regardless of culture and position I prefer to see events that actually did happen even if they necessarily does not make complete sense in your game.

Peter Ebbesen said:
Thus the design decision to write the new game engine (and it is rewritten from scratch, it isn't an "EU2 with features disabled" as some of you seem to believe when talking about "enabling X for modders again, why do you remove our freedom") based on the alternate model "get a historical starting position - and let the world develop from there with each nation trying to do its best in the situation it is placed" is - at least to my mind - much more historical than EU2 ever was, it is truly about creating history, not recreating it.

In this there is absolutely no historical atmosphere. What you get is like in CK, a feeling to be playing in a sandbox. And why bother to insert correct monarchs from the start? You could instead insert fantasy monarchs or have them totally random to get an even better “historical feeling”… :D
 

kullenius

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Just think of us all as security guards:
* He was dressed as Mr France, and had the right name, so I let him in.
* I'm not going to let anyone in until every spot on this body has been checked and verified and the personality test checks out to be Mr France. First then can I let him pass.

Who thinks any of us would get the job?
:rolleyes:
 

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Peter Ebbesen said:
[...]
Thus the design decision to write the new game engine (and it is rewritten from scratch, it isn't an "EU2 with features disabled" as some of you seem to believe when talking about "enabling X for modders again, why do you remove our freedom") based on the alternate model "get a historical starting position - and let the world develop from there with each nation trying to do its best in the situation it is placed" is - at least to my mind - much more historical than EU2 ever was, it is truly about creating history, not recreating it.
[...]

Well, I am always promising to myself that I will not talk anymore about these points, but as long as I see an intelligent post with a diferent opinion than mine I feel the urge to write... ;)

I can agree with what you wrote. The problem is what you wrote is not exactly how the game behaves. There was history BEFORE the point in time one chooses to start the game. This background is lacking and it is because of it that we see Austria or the Teutonic Order colonizing in 1470s. Certainly you agree this is not about ahistorical plausibility...

I think the events as they are defined now, are much more flexible, can lead to more logical situations, but the AI most of the time is lacking to simulate how each country would cope with a situation. I mean, it seems to me any country will evaluate the same way the possibility of sending a settler to America, for instance. This is implausible. Each AI decision should be modified by their own context, not only in some direct way, like checking a probability and if they have the money to do a certain action, but also to simulate the true political environment of the country... perhaps basing the decisions on each country political sliders.

Most of us that think a significant part of the game was forgotten in this 3rd version are accused of wanting to see History unfolds like it was in reality.

In fact I could not find any post that defends such a static game and I think that cannot be farther from the truth..

We want some kind of plausibility in the game, knowing beforehand that in the course of 300 years, the final result will be *significantly* different from what happened in reality. In fact, we want that!

But we want some sort of causality introduced. What is not supposed to happen is in 20 years things completely diverge from a ahistorical plausible path like Provence owning Portugal, Mecklemburg owning Sweden (take it Johan! ;) ), England owing Burgundy, Spain with NA colonies in 1470, Teutonic Order in Africa, etc...

This being said, I will got to work and later will plan the heavy modding I'll do in the weekend! ;)
 

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Judge said:
[...]
However compared to blatant fantasy events more or less cleverly invented that will trigger for any nations regardless of culture and position I prefer to see events that actually did happen even if they necessarily does not make complete sense in your game.
[...]


The few historical events were coded as an afterthought. But in fact this new syntax provides better ways to deal with historical events putting them in context. There is now much more flexibility in coding the events if one has the patience and the skill to do so.
 

Laffertytig

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as ive said in previous posts i was a big fan of all the events in EU2, however i really do wanna believe that the new dynamic event approach will work if it makes the game more challenging and fun but there does seem a massive hole has been left where all the events were and nothing has really replaced them.

hopefully the modders will put some soul back into the game and then maybe i will buy it. the demo was very boring and bland
 

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Laffertytig said:
as ive said in previous posts i was a big fan of all the events in EU2, however i really do wanna believe that the new dynamic event approach will work if it makes the game more challenging and fun but there does seem a massive hole has been left where all the events were and nothing has really replaced them.

hopefully the modders will put some soul back into the game and then maybe i will buy it. the demo was very boring and bland

In my opinion you are right. But the tools to do beter events on the whole are there.