Lack of historical feeling and atmosphere

[contecorti]

I haven't played HoI2, but I've played HoI, and to me EU2 and HoI are really very much alike, and since EU3 isn't really that different from EU2, I suspect EU3 and HoI2 can't be that different (if you take out the obvious ones).

From a gameplay perspective it's clear that EU3 is more near to HoI2 than CIV4...HoI2 and EU3 are creatures of the same company afterall.
What a lot of people try to say is that the historical elements in EU3 are more near to the historical elements of CIV4 than historical elements in HoI2.And quite frankly a dynamic AI is good progress compared to the prescripted AI, but i don't see the point why they had to water down so much historic elements of the game.They could have made the passage from a prescripted AI to a dynamic AI less traumatic...considered also that a lot of their fanbase are avid history readers.

 

[AdmiralNelson]

From a gameplay perspective it's clear that EU3 is more near to HoI2 than CIV4...HoI2 and EU3 are creatures of the same company afterall.
What a lot of people try to say is that the historical elements in EU3 are more near to the historical elements of CIV4 than historical elements in HoI2.And quite frankly a dynamic AI is good progress compared to the prescripted AI, but i don't see the point why they had to water down so much historic elements of the game.They could have made the passage from a prescripted AI to a dynamic AI less traumatic...considered also that a lot of their fanbase are avid history readers.

They (many, many modders if not Paradox themselves) are working on the ahistorical colonization issues. You can rest easy in that.

 

[Nimic]

To be honest, my experience so far with EU3 hasn't shown me that the outcomes aren't [/B]quite just so ahistorical as some people (who likely haven't played that much or if at all) say. Sure, some things go astray, but if they didn't this wouldn't be a fun game to play. If I see a huge "minor" in a game, I'm glad, I don't think "well that's just wrong".

And, like I've said a dozen times already, colonization, while needing a bit of tweaking, isn't half as ridiculous as some people are making it out to be. EU3 isn't a completely "finished" game, but it's hardly broken either.

 

[contecorti]

To be honest, my experience so far with EU3 hasn't shown me that the outcomes aren't [/B]quite just so ahistorical as some people (who likely haven't played that much or if at all) say. Sure, some things go astray, but if they didn't this wouldn't be a fun game to play. If I see a huge "minor" in a game, I'm glad, I don't think "well that's just wrong".

And, like I've said a dozen times already, colonization, while needing a bit of tweaking, isn't half as ridiculous as some people are making it out to be. EU3 isn't a completely "finished" game, but it's hardly broken either.

The lack of historicity which a lot of us refer IMO is in the fact that events are simply general, not country related.Reading developer diaries I thought (dreamed) about the fact that i will not have a Pearl Harbor event when i had no fleet in Hawaii like in HoI2, i thought and frankly this is what developer diaries seemed to explain that Pearl Harbor event would happen if
in 06/12/1941 Pacific fleet was at hawaii
-USA embargoed Japan
-Militarist coup in Japan
If all three conditions happened Pearl Harbor event triggered; and i'm sure a lot of us interpreted developer diaries in that way.Which was absolutely a progress over previous Paradox titles.
Now what we have, Russian Nation event. Italian nation event, Plague event; where are all the event "Russo-Turkish War", "Spain-France tense relations", "Treaty of Tordesillas".All these events could be made dynamic non scripted but where are?

 

[AdmiralNelson]

The lack of historicity which a lot of us refer IMO is in the fact that events are simply general, not country related.Reading developer diaries I thought (dreamed) about the fact that i will not have a Pearl Harbor event when i had no fleet in Hawaii like in HoI2, i thought and frankly this is what developer diaries seemed to explain that Pearl Harbor event would happen if
in 06/12/1941 Pacific fleet was at hawaii
-USA embargoed Japan
-Militarist coup in Japan
If all three conditions happened Pearl Harbor event triggered; and i'm sure a lot of us interpreted developer diaries in that way.Which was absolutely a progress over previous Paradox titles.
Now what we have, Russian Nation event. Italian nation event, Plague event; where are all the event "Russo-Turkish War", "Spain-France tense relations", "Treaty of Tordesillas".All these events could be made dynamic non scripted but where are?

In Paradox's defense, I have no reasonably simple idea how one could script a Treaty of Tordesillas event with this new engine.

 

[contecorti]

In Paradox's defense, I have no reasonably simple idea how one could script a Treaty of Tordesillas event with this new engine.

it is why a lot of people here refer to the game as being more "civish", and to be honest they are right.History as we know it is simply cut from the game without all these events.

 

[AKjeldsen]

it is why a lot of people here refer to the game as being more "civish", and to be honest they are right.History as we know it is simply cut from the game without all these events.

Not necessarily. You just need to interpret what happens in the game a little.

 

[AdmiralNelson]

it is why a lot of people here refer to the game as being more "civish", and to be honest they are right.History as we know it is simply cut from the game without all these events.

Let me explain what I meant.

In EUII, the ToT event gave Spain and Portugal the right to attack anyone outside of Europe in their particular spheres of influence.

The problem with that event is that half the time, Spain and Portugal didn't even have many colonies. They might not even exist, if Castile had annexed Portugal in war or diplomacy or if Spain failed to form (which was not uncommon).

In EUIII, Paradox has made a step to a new event engine with context sensitive triggers.

Paradox would have to script an event that said, "If Country X controls 70% these provinces (and list every province that Spain historically controlled) and if Country Y controls 70 % of these provinces (and list every province that Portugal historically controlled) then give Spain and Portugal a CB on any nation that builds a colony in any one of those provinces." I'm probably oversimplifying that event, too.

There's no guarantee you'll get two major colonizers in EUIII and there wasn't a guarantee in EUII, really. There's no reason the Pope couldn't have drawn the line horizontally, had Spain decided to colonize North America instead of South America. Paradox would then have to script an event for North America and South America being divided between Spain and Portugal, listing every province in the two continents in the process.

That event is difficult to script, in my opinion. Too difficult to be worth scripting, in my opinion, since it might not have any effect at all, ever.

Also, I don't think I need reminders that I'm playing in a historical setting.

 

[contecorti]

Let me explain what I meant.

In EUII, the ToT event gave Spain and Portugal the right to attack anyone outside of Europe in their particular spheres of influence.

The problem with that event is that half the time, Spain and Portugal didn't even have many colonies. They might not even exist, if Castile had annexed Portugal in war or diplomacy or if Spain failed to form (which was not uncommon).

In EUIII, Paradox has made a step to a new event engine with context sensitive triggers.

Paradox would have to script an event that said, "If Country X controls 70% these provinces (and list every province that Spain historically controlled) and if Country Y controls 70 % of these provinces (and list every province that Portugal historically controlled) then give Spain and Portugal a CB on any nation that builds a colony in any one of those provinces." I'm probably oversimplifying that event, too.

There's no guarantee you'll get two major colonizers in EUIII and there wasn't a guarantee in EUII, really. There's no reason the Pope couldn't have drawn the line horizontally, had Spain decided to colonize North America instead of South America. Paradox would then have to script an event for North America and South America being divided between Spain and Portugal, listing every province in the two continents in the process.

That event is difficult to script, in my opinion. Too difficult to be worth scripting, in my opinion, since it might not have any effect at all, ever.

Also, I don't think I need reminders that I'm playing in a historical setting.

I also found that implementation was not optimal and agree that a dynamic AI is a lot better than pre-scripted events.I'm not a modder so can't answer about ToT BTW the problem remains that a lot of us will find a bit bland a game about global history without these events.A Paradoxian hopefully could clear some doubts about the capability to add ToT such like events in game.It's the only way which can be followed to make dynamic AI and history come together.

 

[Duuk]

The new ability to seize outside of peace deals ANY colony of less than 1000 inhabitants addresses the ToT issue.

Just that Spain can't walk in and take it without war. And really, did the Spanish or Portugese ever walk in to a colony while not at war and seize it?

 

[MacGregor]

They (many, many modders if not Paradox themselves) are working on the ahistorical colonization issues. You can rest easy in that.

But it takes several months, if not over a year to get a good mod out. The first versions usually are as bad or worse than the original game. With the HoIs and EU 1 and 2 I could play and enjoy the games even before the mods were done. Not so sure about this one. Maybe I'll buy it and see.

 

[contecorti]

But it takes several months, if not over a year to get a good mod out. The first versions usually are as bad or worse than the original game. With the HoIs and EU 1 and 2 I could play and enjoy the games even before the mods were done. Not so sure about this one. Maybe I'll buy it and see.

It is my main fear.If there isn't any Paradox policy to make game more historic i hardly see that this game can be improved on this aspect.

 

[Duuk]

But it takes several months, if not over a year to get a good mod out. The first versions usually are as bad or worse than the original game. With the HoIs and EU 1 and 2 I could play and enjoy the games even before the mods were done. Not so sure about this one. Maybe I'll buy it and see.

I've said this a few times, but based on the <intelligent> discussion threads in the more calm, sedate Aristocrat... errr... "Collector's Edition" forum, I'd wager large dollars there are some tweaks to the colonial AI and colonial stuff in general in 1.02

 

[Strategos' Risk]

In this there is absolutely no historical atmosphere. What you get is like in CK, a feeling to be playing in a sandbox.

Ah, but wouldn't it even be more bland and generic than CK, which at least has appropriate graphics and music for the time period, and the whole RPG element?

 

[gamer42_au]

good description of the AI in eu2.

Key question - is the AI in EU3 any different. That is, does the EU3 England AI have specific inclinations aligned with historic English inclinations?
In some Paradox games the AI files are modable to give each country specific priorities and preferences, which can change over time (alternative AI files changes prompted by events). From comments above there are no (accessible?) AI files in EU3.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

This discussion seems a bit silly. Comparing EU3 with EU2 as it is now (be it SP with 1.09 AGCEEP, or MP with WATK) is comparing apples with oranges. The proper point of reference would be EU2 in its released form, and there EU3 seems to be winning hands down.

But then why call it EU3?

(re: the general unpleasantness in this thread)
If you don't like EU3 because of the increased freedom with regard to historical events, there's two things you can do:

There's always option number three:

3. Bitch, whine, moan, and boycott until Paradox gets the message and makes EU4 into EU2 2.

I'm sorry, but that's the only way for people who do not like an installment of a game series to get the series back on track.

Me, I don't care either way, since apparently my laptop can't even handle the EU 3 demo.

 

[AdmiralNelson]

Me, I don't care either way, since apparently my laptop can't even handle the EU 3 demo.

Then why are you posting?

 

[MacGregor]

Key question - is the AI in EU3 any different. That is, does the EU3 England AI have specific inclinations aligned with historic English inclinations?
In some Paradox games the AI files are modable to give each country specific priorities and preferences, which can change over time (alternative AI files changes prompted by events). From comments above there are no (accessible?) AI files in EU3.

That's part of a big problem I have with EU3, although some who actually have the game say the new dynamical system is better: there are no seperate AIs for different nations. All nations use the same AI, with differences supposedly coming from the situation. I'm having a hard time swallowing that Peter the Great and Henry VIII, given the same situation and circumstances, would always make the same decision. Oh wait, the chances of either of those guys showing up if you start in 1453 is practically nil.

 

[EUnderhill]

That's part of a big problem I have with EU3, although some who actually have the game say the new dynamical system is better: there are no seperate AIs for different nations. All nations use the same AI, with differences supposedly coming from the situation. I'm having a hard time swallowing that Peter the Great and Henry VIII, given the same situation and circumstances, would always make the same decision. Oh wait, the chances of either of those guys showing up if you start in 1453 is practically nil.

Perhaps there is a barrier to this in the optimization... you could have custom AIs, but the game would operate in real real time.

 

[Strategos' Risk]

Here's an idea to gauge the "extremely moddable" aspect of EU3:

Could you change land masses and the seas? And all the names, and so that you can get a completely fantasy world with fantasy nations and fantasy peoples, and so there would be no pretense of it not being fantasy?

Could you change the cannon units into dragonriders?

Then why are you posting?

Two or so years from now, when EU4 is still on the horizon, I'd like to play EU3. And free speech.