Lack of historical balance in AGC-EEP

[unmerged(29041)]

The reason why Europeans didn't just do the same thing Spain did in Central America isn't from lack of resources or will. England was just as greedy as Spain was. The reason why is because they couldn't.

In Central and South America, the Spanish COULD conquer full prosperous cities with functioning economies, convert them to catholicism, and milk them without any significant investment in infrastructure. This cannot be said of the Iroquois, who despite having a functional confederacy-based state, simply did not have the infrastructure of a civilization. They COULD have eventually developed one, they by no means lacked any of the neccisary ingredients for one, but they just didn't at the time, nor did one come to exist after European colonization. What did happen was the Iroquois were either assimilated into European colonies or driven off their land. This is exactly what natives do in EU2. As they were a very formidable force, I would personally advise that Iroquois, Cherokee and Hurons have an absolute HORDE of native strength and aggression, that it would take a determined army to defeat them.

That would put them in the hands of the human player only, and the AI would expend valuable resources for no gain.

 

[unmerged(29041)]

I think a possible imperfect solution would be to make the governments of those East-Indian states that were conquered by Europeans of Pagan state religion, while the provinces continue to be whatever they are (Muslim, Indu...). It is grossly ahistorical, but their conquest produced the same effect that the conquest of the American empires: No BB and annexation in one go. Some things should be done so they advance technologically on pair with their neighbors, and that their income and revolt risk are proper, but that is easy to fix. The AI can be gently coerced to go after them and helped adequately but without being a inheritance. A human player playing those countries in East Indias would have the religion set properly for him and the rest of his neighbors.

When I play a colonizer, two thinks stop me from attacking a non-pagan victim of colonialism. The stability (easily cured with CBs and stab boosts), and the BBs, that by them are usually very high. It does not make sense that the Dutch would attack Macassar, and get DoWed in Europe because of that. Macassar being a pagan would help there.

 

[Garbon]

I vote non...a lot of the states are already pagan. See Makassar

 

[Garbon]

Besides, for what you are advocating, there could just be events that trigger an inheritance & bb reduction when all the provinces are controlled.

 

[unmerged(19903)]

I do not oppose giving the Portugues/Dutch/English AIs cores, ships, events, or other helps designed to get them to carry out their proper conquests (check my events for Malabar, I give Portugal and later the Netherlands a core on Cochin for when these states controlled the province, I've also contributed to IDLF's EP mod, which has a great many AI cheats to facilitate European conquests in Asia), I'm arguing against the idea that Asian states should be deleted as that grossly distorts the history of the region. If we delete Makassar to make things easier on the Dutch AI why not ax Byzantium to help the Ottoman AI? When the Dutch conquered Makassar they did so by defeating a country with an army not by overrunning a band of "natives" (they also did so in alliance with another Indonesian state). The Indonesian states deserve statehood because they were fully-fledged states that did all the things that make a viable EU state: they interacted with their neighbors, signed treaties, fought wars, and were often more important players on the world scene than certain minor European principalities.


Also, remember that by 1787 (or even 1819) much of Indonesia/Malaysia/Africa remained under the control of indigenous states. The great era of European conquests occurs in the second half of the nineteenth century. India falls relatively early but even there the British gain India in a series of bloody wars lasting about 100 years. The point here being that for Europeans in the EU timeframe to conquer these Asian states was much more difficult than sending the dispatching of colonists from the homeland.

That's why MAJORITY of this states should be erased/limited - some of them were important ( for ex. Brunei, Mataram, Atjeh ) but there should be some changes made there - vanilla version of Indonesia was quite good - reduce the territories of Brunei ( 2 southern prov's and Palawan ), Atjeh, Mataram, Makassar, erase Ternate and erase or limit to 1 prov Kutei and Magindanao.

Generally you've right that this small moslem nations was more difficult to defeat than some primitive natives, but we cannot exaggerate this case. They were no match for Portugal or Dutch forces - fleets of this 2 countries effectively destroyed regional trade, enforced monopolies there, created factories, garrisons and destroyed everyone who opposed them - Netherlands managed to liquidate portugese influences AND conquered majority of these nations in 50 - 60 years - that's why power of this minors should be AT LEAST limited - there was NO RIVALRY between regional powers and Portugal/Netherlands - there was only Dutch - Portugese - English struggle of power - that's why creating so powerful regional powers is ridiculous - there's even no place to create factories there - when Verenigde Oostindische Compagnie ( VOC ) established their base on Jawa, their just destroyed whole city ( Jakarta ) and established new one ( Batavia ), as a base for their operations - if some islands were disobedient to the VOC policies and traded spices with other colonial nations, dutch just landed there and were enforcing their law - if natives/regional nations opposed, dutch destroyed nutmeg trees
to the last one ( for ex. Rosinheim, Pulo Ran, Ambon islands ) - in the second half of XVII cent. there were only two options about trade in Indonesia - trade via VOC ships, or don't trade at all :rofl:

These nations are just highly overpowered considering they historical possibilities to defend against europeans ( 25 k army in hand of lord of Brunei, ready to whip some dutch butts - good joke :rofl: )

And you're comparing THESE puny nations to Bizantium :wacko: ???

In XVIII cent. majority of Indonesia was in Dutch hands ( the most valuable territories ) I am looking at the map of this region and I know what I'm writing.

If someone wants to play as Brunei/Mataram/Atjeh - let him play, I don't care - but some MORE HISTORICAL option of play in AGC - EEP would be nice in this region...

 

[unmerged(2456)]

And if we remove those nations from places like india for colonizing by use of colonist we end we an even worse unhistorical result, eupean cultured and religious provinces all over india SEA and indonesia where cultures and even moreso religion was strong enough to withstand that. Chrisitanity did not make much inrode into areas already dominated by islam and buddhism (and in game terms confuscianism). They could only really do converting of local paganistic tribes that didn't have a strong and widespread religious center and heritage like Hinduism and even less so against major world religions of Buddhism and Islam. They made some coverts here and there, but no enough to justify whosale provinces changing on the magnitude proposed here.

Also cultues...european cultures in areas dominated population-wise by non-europeans...humm...we don't go for that practice in europe, why should be go for it here, especially where those people are much more centralized and their culture is much more rooted than those in a more primitive society.

 

[unmerged(45766)]

I totally agree with Faello : local potentates were absolutely no match to european countries.


And for the events, this is far from being a good solution. What if, say, Spain crushed Portugal, and Venice & Genoa instead took the role of Portugal ? The solution of the events would be a carcan preventing any distortion of history. Any european country that had a decent-sized navy could easily replace Portugal and/or Netherlands, it's a question of historical plausibility : teh will to take control of the spice trade, and the power to enforce it. Neither Portugal nor the Netherlands were so much more powerful than their neighbours.

@Jinnai : what represents culture ? It's only a concept, much like cores. With state-cultured provinces, it means you get well accepted by the population as ruler of it. Or it could mean the population has no choice to accept you or not, as you are so much more powerful. In the second half of EU2, any indian/indonesian/african country that displeaded european merchants/invaders/colonists/whatever-name-you-want-to-use would face defeat at the hands of technologically vastly superior forces. Off course, some heavily populated and/or rather remote (or hard to get to) areas could hope causing enough troubles to ensure a difficult control. Which is precisely what wrong-culture would represent. Such areas would not fall under european dominion until 19th century.

So, we'd have :
- provinces with an asian culture where europeans couldn't establish as firmly before 1820, and
- provinces that european countries could fully and easily dominate, where the possibility for european culture would represent this.
In the second category, we find : the coasts of India, the majority of Indonesia, most of the eastern coast of Africa. Oh, surprise, exactly the provinces open to colonization in vanilla, which were filled by your plethora of countries.

And, Jinnai, colonists are a concept too, like culture, cores or stability. It can represent whatever you want, not only a few dozens of people seeking fame and fortune out of fortress europa. EU2 is a game, some conceptualization was necessary, you should keep this in mind. I myself picture the colonists as being a projection of power, by whatever means are more appropriate for the area.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

@Jinnai : what represents culture ? It's only a concept, much like cores. With state-cultured provinces, it means you get well accepted by the population as ruler of it. Or it could mean the population has no choice to accept you or not, as you are so much more powerful. In the second half of EU2, any indian/indonesian/african country that displeaded european merchants/invaders/colonists/whatever-name-you-want-to-use would face defeat at the hands of technologically vastly superior forces. Off course, some heavily populated and/or rather remote (or hard to get to) areas could hope causing enough troubles to ensure a difficult control. Which is precisely what wrong-culture would represent. Such areas would not fall under european dominion until 19th century.

Ahh but you see India and parts of Indonesia didn't accept rule. They constntly fought against it by multiple outlets. It was futile, but they didn't role over and just let the Europeans have their way compeltely.

So, we'd have :
- provinces with an asian culture where europeans couldn't establish as firmly before 1820, and
- provinces that european countries could fully and easily dominate, where the possibility for european culture would represent this.
In the second category, we find : the coasts of India, the majority of Indonesia, most of the eastern coast of Africa. Oh, surprise, exactly the provinces open to colonization in vanilla, which were filled by your plethora of countries.

nope wrong again.

They could militarly dominate that area, you know like England military dominating Ireland and Scottland. So I guess, all of those areas, once they become part of england should immedatly, have English culture, because well, they were provinces where a european country could fully and easily dominate another country.

Or how about OE and its conquests, France and its conquests or Hungary and its conquest, or Russia and its conquest or Mughuls and their conquest or Perisa and its conquest....

And, Jinnai, colonists are a concept too, like culture, cores or stability. It can represent whatever you want, not only a few dozens of people seeking fame and fortune out of fortress europa. EU2 is a game, some conceptualization was necessary, you should keep this in mind. I myself picture the colonists as being a projection of power, by whatever means are more appropriate for the area.

Ahh but not really.because they can't beat down natives in fact they get crushed by every native uprising so there is a finite limit there on how far you can stretch them. Therefore its that they are meant for peaceful settlement abosrbing the local population or erradicating the local population and settling, both of which didn't happen in india or Indonesiia at all.

Oh and you conviently skipped the larger and more uhistorical thing, the advancement of religion in places where it shouldn't be. Now I hope you're not gonna to try arguing that Catholism is a vaguely defined thing that can be stetched around and fit whatever defination comes in handy are you?

 

[unmerged(19903)]

And if we remove those nations from places like india for colonizing by use of colonist we end we an even worse unhistorical result, eupean cultured and religious provinces all over india SEA and indonesia where cultures and even moreso religion was strong enough to withstand that. Chrisitanity did not make much inrode into areas already dominated by islam and buddhism (and in game terms confuscianism). They could only really do converting of local paganistic tribes that didn't have a strong and widespread religious center and heritage like Hinduism and even less so against major world religions of Buddhism and Islam. They made some coverts here and there, but no enough to justify whosale provinces changing on the magnitude proposed here.

Oh come on ! It's AGC - EEP - this mod allows you to change history in possible historical way - if you can convert european prov's, why you cannot convert Indonesian ( especially that large part of this territory was controlled by some primitive tribes - much more than it is in AGC - EEP now ) ???

You can launch massive missionary action and case is resolved

That's not the point what you CAN do in Indonesia, but what you CANNOT do - game should leave some possibilities to the player - and current possibilities in Indonesia are somewhat limited ( altough events for VOC are great ).

Also cultues...european cultures in areas dominated population-wise by non-europeans...humm...we don't go for that practice in europe, why should be go for it here, especially where those people are much more centralized and their culture is much more rooted than those in a more primitive society.

Yeah, right - look at Incas and Aztec empires - well governed non - european cultures, rich, with art and religion - whoops ? Where are they now ? I see only about 400 milions of iberic population there :rofl:

 

[binTravkin]

Akhem, we're going too far again.

We wanted to solve things, don't you remember?

I suppose that we all know that the problem which came from the first post of this thread is that European colonial nations do not behave historically because some of the areas are either impossible to infiltrate the way they did (due to game mechanics and AGCEEP specifics with adding more countries in the region) or they are not as desirable under current setup as they historically were.

So to tune down, in general, there are 2 problems:

1.The too low income from historically rich provinces (for outsiders with different religion and culture).
2.The inability of currently existant native countries to represent their historical prototypes.

And I already offered solutions for both of the problems:

1.Increase tax value, so both AI and human "likes" them more.
2.Add shields where necessary to guide AI (you can even make it an AI_Event type event, so humans can't exploit that).

Of course, my offered solutions are not perfect and are discussable, there are numerous other ideas out there and we need to keep track on them.

The problem with 1 of the other ideas (that of removing all those "blockading" countries) is that some people do not agree to it.

I don't think arguing over it is of any use.

Lets better find a solution which majority of us accepts, otherwise this is getting insulting.

Your ideas (in concentrated way and accompanied with a short argument, please)?!

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Oh come on ! It's AGC - EEP - this mod allows you to change history in possible historical way - if you can convert european prov's, why you cannot convert Indonesian ( especially that large part of this territory was controlled by some primitive tribes - much more than it is in AGC - EEP now ) ???

You can launch massive missionary action and case is resolved

That's not the point what you CAN do in Indonesia, but what you CANNOT do - game should leave some possibilities to the player - and current possibilities in Indonesia are somewhat limited ( altough events for VOC are great ).

Yea but i can't lauch massive and cheap colonist to covert both my culture and relgion at nearly 100% success rate. See the big differance there? I have no problem with someone wanting to spend money on missonaries trying to covert those provinces.

Yeah, right - look at Incas and Aztec empires - well governed non - european cultures, rich, with art and religion - whoops ? Where are they now ? I see only about 400 milions of iberic population there :rofl:

Can you also tell me where those big plauges in india were that killed 90% of the subcontients populatiion? Or perhaps where they those incas had used firearms and advanced military tactics and doctrine? Or perhaps you can point out to me those muslim traders they had to outcompete and whose religion they had to push back in the Americas? Or maybe you can show me all that sprawling Portugese and Spanish territoty owned in India outside those cities. and forts. Or perhaps you can show me all those commoner civilians rushing off to settle in india and indoesia permentatly?

 

[unmerged(45766)]

Ahh but you see India and parts of Indonesia didn't accept rule. They constntly fought against it by multiple outlets. It was futile, but they didn't role over and just let the Europeans have their way compeltely.
nope wrong again.

They could militarly dominate that area, you know like England military dominating Ireland and Scottland. So I guess, all of those areas, once they become part of england should immedatly, have English culture, because well, they were provinces where a european country could fully and easily dominate another country.
Or how about OE and its conquests, France and its conquests or Hungary and its conquest, or Russia and its conquest or Mughuls and their conquest or Perisa and its conquest....

You're forgetting one major element. Ireland and Scotland are real close, an AI country has (close to) no problems keeping the provinces in check. Same for the Balkans. It's not so in Asia. Remember ? AI-inefficiency. As I have seen elsewhere, AI won't be improved to the point of being able to wage remote wars (except China conquering Ireland ).

If you want to see them fighting once control-ownership of the provinces is achieved, just introduce events for great revolts, causing revolts or RR. But now, they can't even conquer those provinces.

I am really under the impression you just refuse to see (or acknowledge) that you have a major problem for a mod that pretends to be an historical mod.

Ahh but not really.because they can't beat down natives in fact they get crushed by every native uprising so there is a finite limit there on how far you can stretch them. Therefore its that they are meant for peaceful settlement abosrbing the local population or erradicating the local population and settling, both of which didn't happen in india or Indonesiia at all.

Oh and you conviently skipped the larger and more uhistorical thing, the advancement of religion in places where it shouldn't be. Now I hope you're not gonna to try arguing that Catholism is a vaguely defined thing that can be stetched around and fit whatever defination comes in handy are you?

Projection of power doesn't mean automatic success. You don't either need to really put so many natives, and instead consider the local potentates (or the local populations) as outside the maps. A little war historically erupted, or a rebellion ? Use revolt events, or revolt risk, whether historical events or province-based random events.

And for another bit of advice, don't use this line as an argument, historically, it hasn't worked well when discussing this mod.

Then, you really shouldn't promote AGCEEP as an historical mod. I don't call for having history unfold exactly as it did (I read books for that, it's much better). I just ask for more historicity in enabling the big picture to happen, and not privilege the minute detail over it.

Refusing to acknowledge that Europe was in the prominent position in the world at the end of EU2, like you do by simply dismissing it every time it's said, is revisionism. It's the very definition of it : dismissing proved historical facts for ideological reasons. If you want to make a mod where the Europeans don't come on top, yeah do it, it could be fun to play. But don't pretend that it's the most historically precise (let alone accurate) mod. Be honest. There's nothing wrong in pursuing such a goal, as long as you do it openly.



I am really under the impression you just refuse to see (or acknowledge) that you have a major problem for a mod that pretends to be a historical mod, and that you refuse to use all the tools you have. You stick to one view, and to a strictly limited understanding of the concepts.

 

[binTravkin]

Come on!

Let's stop this babbling, and get things solved!

 

[Garbon]

If I had more time this morning, I'd whip a wonderful display for you of past conversations. However, I need to continue my job hunt, so I only really have enough time for a paltry response.

Essentially however, everything you have said has already been said and more eloquently in the past. While I think there are changes to be made, including the giving of cores/armies and modifications to the distance factor in the ai field...nothing has been changed that suggests that the only way that Indonesia will work is to ax all of the native nations. It'd be historical revisionism to allow the Europeans to come and colonize a place that they conquered. Which ultimately means that Europe needs to be encourage to take the place by force.

Oh and I really wish that you'd harp on East Africa and India more, then I could bring out some more specific facts as I know those areas a bit better.

 

[Garbon]

Then, you really shouldn't promote AGCEEP as an historical mod. I don't call for having history unfold exactly as it did (I read books for that, it's much better). I just ask for more historicity in enabling the big picture to happen, and not privilege the minute detail over it.

Oh and I'm sorry if I seem dismissive...I'm just rather tired of this conversation after a few years.

 

[unmerged(45766)]

Oh and I'm sorry if I seem dismissive...I'm just rather tired of this conversation after a few years.

Maybe there's a reason behind that same conversation coming again and again...

 

[binTravkin]

Maybe there's a reason behind that same conversation coming again and again...

Yes, and it's called "the last word syndrome".

Nothing has been solved with this conversation yet.

 

[Garbon]

Yes, and it's called "the last word syndrome".

Nothing has been solved with this conversation yet.

Such threads entitled as this current one is, never accomplish anything. People post to regional threads if they really feel like doing anything.

 

[binTravkin]

Such threads entitled as this current one is, never accomplish anything. People post to regional threads if they really feel like doing anything.

Ahh, okay, sorry for messing in guys.
Keep up the good spam..erm.. work!

 

[Garbon]

Ahh, okay, sorry for messing in guys.
Keep up the good spam..erm.. work!

My comment wasn't directed so much at you, but rather at the people who think its a good idea to have these type of threads.