La Cosa Nostra

[Andre Bolkonsky]

There was a popular (within the mob) myth that Albert Anastasia had some cronies cause the SS Normandie fire to "demonstrate" the need for a more cooperative relationship with the fellows who really controlled the docks.

From my understanding, the Sicilian mafia has been considerably more vicious and violent than the American mafia: entire families are considered fair game, as are a bunch of people who the American mafia would consider off-limits: Prosecutors, Judges, Police, Journalists (in the USA, killing one of them brings down the wrath of God Almighty and the Justice Department). There was a war between the different clans that broke out in the 1980s and the Italian govt. tried to crack down (the Maxi Trials). Magistrates, police and carabinieri personnel, and ordinary people became targets when the mafia clans responded with a terrorism campaign that spilled over into mainland Italy.

Ah, now we're cooking.

You are correct about the American Mob having very strict rules about killing civilians, politicians and police. They much preferred to bribe them, less heat. To quote Virgil Sollozo; they're businessmen, and blood is a big expense.

I have heard this story, but I am unsure it is true. Normandie seemingly was a true accident. However, it does give the FBI and OSS reason to approach Meyer Lansky - who is known to be hostile to the Nazis - for help controlling the docks. Lansky routinely sent Bugsy Segal and his Jewish henchmen to visit Nazi Bund meetings, which they dispersed violently and with great joy. Lansky says maybe they can help, but they need to move Lucky Luciano to a less secure prison closer to New York. Which is done. Luciano is finally released from prison, and expelled from the country, for his direct assistance helping Patton overrun Sicily using his Sicilian catspaws to show them the smugglers routes over goat trails and mountain passes unknown to the Germans.

Albert Anastasia is the man with the greatest nickname in the history of the Mafia: Lord High Executioner. The man who killed Joe Masseria - along with Vito Genovese and Bugsy Segal - for Luciano. He ran Murder Incorporated, and used the Jewish Mob controlled by Meyer Lansky as part of his murder-for-hire operation. You want to hit an Italian, you send in a Jew they'd never suspect to be a contract killer.

 

[Galaahd]

There was a popular (within the mob) myth that Albert Anastasia had some cronies cause the SS Normandie fire to "demonstrate" the need for a more cooperative relationship with the fellows who really controlled the docks.

From my understanding, the Sicilian mafia has been considerably more vicious and violent than the American mafia: entire families are considered fair game, as are a bunch of people who the American mafia would consider off-limits: Prosecutors, Judges, Police, Journalists (in the USA, killing one of them brings down the wrath of God Almighty and the Justice Department). There was a war between the different clans that broke out in the 1980s and the Italian govt. tried to crack down (the Maxi Trials). Magistrates, police and carabinieri personnel, and ordinary people became targets when the mafia clans responded with a terrorism campaign that spilled over into mainland Italy.

The Italian mafia was much more ruthless - murdering kids, women, relatives, innocent people left and right, judges, cops, politicians, public bombings and terrorism. They didn't even shy away from bombing churches after the church condamned the mafia.

Right now the 'Ndrangheta is much more secretive and quiet. There are arrests sometimes, but they very much like staying in the shadows and avoiding the spotlights.

 

[LizarDAMN]

I think it was Roberto Saviano, a brilliant journalist/writer, who said it best. 'Ndrangheta wants to be a parasite in or a symbiote with Italian state while Sicilian Mafia wanted to be a state themselves. Hence the difference in levels of violence.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I think it was Roberto Saviano, a brilliant journalist/writer, who said it best. 'Ndrangheta wants to be a parasite in or a symbiote with Italian state while Sicilian Mafia wanted to be a state themselves. Hence the difference in levels of violence.

Gomorrah for the win.

 

[viale]

Camorra

Gomorrah was a city God didn't take much liking to.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

Camorra

Gomorrah was a city God didn't take much liking to.

Gommorah is a very famous movie / TV show based on the Camorra written by the above mentioned Robert Saviano.

 

[LordTempest]

Camorra

Gomorrah was a city God didn't take much liking to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomorrah_(book)

 

[Galaahd]

Just two days ago there was a ndrangheta execution during the middle of the day on a very crowded beach in Calabria.

The killer just disguised as a normal tourist, drank a beer, then with no concealment or disguise whatsoever he walked up to his target and shot him a few times, then he walked away.

Despite there being hundreds of people on the beach when it occurred no one seems to be willing to testify as no one saw anything. Power of the omertà.

Anyway looks like the target was a mobster

 

[Sanny]

Just two days ago there was a ndrangheta execution during the middle of the day on a very crowded beach in Calabria.

The killer just disguised as a normal tourist, drank a beer, then with no concealment or disguise whatsoever he walked up to his target and shot him a few times, then he walked away.

Despite there being hundreds of people on the beach when it occurred no one seems to be willing to testify as no one saw anything. Power of the omertà.

Anyway looks like the target was a mobster

Yup tend to always kill you when you're not looking, you don't even hear the gunshots. That's the way of the mafia.

Nobody wants their own trouble, they dont want their families threatened. Fear is power.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

The collapse of the Morandi Bridge in Genoa is quite likely the result of Mafia contractors fixing maintainence and repair contracts while cutting corners on actually doing the work involved.

My sympathy to those involved, I don’t have a solution, but this seems to be a deeply ingrained problem and you simply have to pity the Italian people.

 

[Galaahd]

The collapse of the Morandi Bridge in Genoa is quite likely the result of Mafia contractors fixing maintainence and repair contracts while cutting corners on actually doing the work involved.

We don't know that.

It could easily be just capitalists and entrepeneurs cutting corners and saving money while not doing actual fixing maintenance.

It's not like they don't behave like the mafia anyway.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

We don't know that.

It could easily be just capitalists and entrepeneurs cutting corners and saving money while not doing actual fixing maintenance.

It's not like they don't behave like the mafia anyway.

Fair enough. It was a quote in an article I read. You would know far more than I.

Best of luck to Genoa.

 

[Health]

From what I found concerning the bridge is that the bridge had been deemed at risk of collapse for a few years now by Antonio Brencich, professor of architecture in the University of Genoa. The architect that built it used a rather bold approach. Heck it would've likely been cheaper to replace the bridge, the cost of upkeep compared to replacement was already at 80% in 1990.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

@Had a dad - two year old thread that serves two purposes in the history forum regarding a direct conversation being moved from OT and tying into Paradox's new Mafia game. If it needs to be closed and reopened, please let me know. But I feel it is relevant to the expanding conversation. My thanks in advance.

The Commission isn’t the same as the National Crime Syndicate. One was a committee that ruled over the Italian Mafia in America, the other is a loose confederation of criminal organizations that would work with other ethnic groups. True the vast majority of delegates were from Jewish or Italian gangs/families that were interconnected but there were others who were invited to join mostly various Irish mafias but I have a book that suggested black criminal organizations as well.

National attention directed at turf wars plays a large part of why this meeting took place was pressure from the St. Valentine’s Day Massacre and the end of prohibition which many of these criminal organizations mutually benefitted from though not without some ugly turf wars particularly in Chicago.

One of the things agreed upon by most of the attendees was that the old guard “Mustache Pete’s” needed to go and two years later Luciano would use Castellammarese War do just that.

The conference marks the start of major changes in American organized crime.

Yes. Capone was always the Mad Dog. His flair is the same reason Joe Batters hid in the shadows for decades allowing other men to front the operation, and why The Big Tuna was one of the few mobsters to die in bed of natural causes.

The point is Luciano forms the Commission based on this idea that goes back to Sicily where Men with a Belly would sit down to negotiate and make decisions in their mutual interest. But The Commision creates a hierarchy of and alliance that lasts roughly fifty years till it is killed off by old age and the RICO act.

Under this umbrella, other gangs are allowed to operate as long as they pay tribute; or else some guy from Jersey might walk by your door one day when your back is turned.

BTW, there is a great series on HBO called The Deuce about porn and the mob in Times Square during the seventies that shows very clearly how the mob forms Crews out of good hard working men with a vision and a taste for living on the edge of the dark side. Very well done. A bit graphic, not necessarily pleasant, but kinda genius.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

@GangsterSynod
@pithorr
@Sgt Bash

Consider this a friendly invite to weigh in.

 

[Culann]

@Had a dad - two year old thread that serves two purposes in the history forum regarding a direct conversation being moved from OT and tying into Paradox's new Mafia game. If it needs to be closed and reopened, please let me know. But I feel it is relevant to the expanding conversation. My thanks in advance.



Yes. Capone was always the Mad Dog. His flair is the same reason Joe Batters hid in the shadows for decades allowing other men to front the operation, and why The Big Tuna was one of the few mobsters to die in bed of natural causes.

The point is Luciano forms the Commission based on this idea that goes back to Sicily where Men with a Belly would sit down to negotiate and make decisions in their mutual interest. But The Commision creates a hierarchy of and alliance that lasts roughly fifty years till it is killed off by old age and the RICO act.

Under this umbrella, other gangs are allowed to operate as long as they pay tribute; or else some guy from Jersey might walk by your door one day when your back is turned.

BTW, there is a great series on HBO called The Deuce about porn and the mob in Times Square during the seventies that shows very clearly how the mob forms Crews out of good hard working men with a vision and a taste for living on the edge of the dark side. Very well done. A bit graphic, not necessarily pleasant, but kinda genius.

I didn't know Paradox had a mafia game, while I'm pretty interested in the mafia and criminal organizations in general, I never play any games around those themes mostly because they are shooters.

Organized crime in general is either a feudal system if you're trying to romanticize it or IMO really just another protection racket. The crews that are mostly comprised by associates, and other criminal elements pay tax/tribute for protection from the organization. It's a way to project strength and pool resources among people who for the most part don't have any issue breaking social contracts, even tradition or values that they often espouse themselves.

That being said I believe the Commission was an attempt to stop the internal fighting among the factions of the New York Italian mob over the title of "Boss of all the Bosses"/"Boss of the Bosses". This is where the American Italian Mafia diverges from the Sicilian Mafia traditions, though I believe the Calabrian mafia 'Ndrangheta has similar factional infighting as the Sicilian Mafia. Simply put the different 'families' would fight over the title so to speak after the previous holder would die or someone would challenge, though this may not always be actually a war. Giuseppe The Castellammarese War started over Salvatore Marazano refusing to accept the election of Giuseppe Masseria to replace D'Aquilla as Capo dei Cappi though this was in part due to Masseria demanding tributes/increasing tributes from the bosses of other families, I use different terms since several of the books I have don't necessarily agree on that particular fact. At any rate the Commission which is still active today was an attempt to stave off that kind of infighting by doing away with the title altogether and the major 'families' would negotiate their differences. Whether the Commission achieved Luciano's vision could be definitely debated one way or another. The New York families had been at times involved in wars with each other as well as internal struggles withing their own family (Colombo Family in particularly struggled with this).

I haven't seen that show, admittedly I don't watch much TV, I just started watching Boardwalk Empire recently. I'm a bit of an amateur historian of sorts when it comes to the Italian mob I own several books, in fact my question from the quiz thread was inspired in part by a "new" (was written in the 70's) book I have on Johnny Torrio which is also partly why I started watching Boardwalk Empire someone told me he's featured pretty heavily. I'll probably check out that show once I get through with Boardwalk Empire.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I didn't know Paradox had a mafia game, while I'm pretty interested in the mafia and criminal organizations in general, I never play any games around those themes mostly because they are shooters.

Organized crime in general is either a feudal system if you're trying to romanticize it or IMO really just another protection racket. The crews that are mostly comprised by associates, and other criminal elements pay tax/tribute for protection from the organization. It's a way to project strength and pool resources among people who for the most part don't have any issue breaking social contracts, even tradition or values that they often espouse themselves.

That being said I believe the Commission was an attempt to stop the internal fighting among the factions of the New York Italian mob over the title of "Boss of all the Bosses"/"Boss of the Bosses". This is where the American Italian Mafia diverges from the Sicilian Mafia traditions, though I believe the Calabrian mafia 'Ndrangheta has similar factional infighting as the Sicilian Mafia. Simply put the different 'families' would fight over the title so to speak after the previous holder would die or someone would challenge, though this may not always be actually a war. Giuseppe The Castellammarese War started over Salvatore Marazano refusing to accept the election of Giuseppe Masseria to replace D'Aquilla as Capo dei Cappi though this was in part due to Masseria demanding tributes/increasing tributes from the bosses of other families, I use different terms since several of the books I have don't necessarily agree on that particular fact. At any rate the Commission which is still active today was an attempt to stave off that kind of infighting by doing away with the title altogether and the major 'families' would negotiate their differences. Whether the Commission achieved Luciano's vision could be definitely debated one way or another. The New York families had been at times involved in wars with each other as well as internal struggles withing their own family (Colombo Family in particularly struggled with this).

I haven't seen that show, admittedly I don't watch much TV, I just started watching Boardwalk Empire recently. I'm a bit of an amateur historian of sorts when it comes to the Italian mob I own several books, in fact my question from the quiz thread was inspired in part by a "new" (was written in the 70's) book I have on Johnny Torrio which is also partly why I started watching Boardwalk Empire someone told me he's featured pretty heavily. I'll probably check out that show once I get through with Boardwalk Empire.

Boardwalk Empire is very good, and the background characters of Rothstein / Lansky / Luciano / Capone are far more interesting in many ways than the characters in the foreground. The first few seasons are outstanding, then it fades unfortunately when they start trying to generate plotline when the story had already been told.

The Deuce is built in a very similar fashion for the exact same time slot on HBO. But it was designed as a limited run show of (3?) seasons that had a beginning, a middle, and an end. They didn't drag it out. And it paints a very intereresting, and disturbing, picture.

Having said that, you are most correct in the fact that Organized Crime has a cover story of benevolence that does not match the day to day operations of their soldiers. For every 'Prime Minister of the Mob' (Frank Costello) that holds all the judges and politicians in his pocket, there stands beside him a 'Lord High Executioner' (Costello's primary ally, Albert Anastasia) operating a little organization called Murder Inc.

 

[Culann]

Boardwalk Empire is very good, and the background characters of Rothstein / Lansky / Luciano / Capone are far more interesting in many ways than the characters in the foreground. The first few seasons are outstanding, then it fades unfortunately.

The Deuce is built in a very similar fashion for the exact same time slot on HBO. But it was designed as a limited run show of (3?) seasons that had a beginning, a middle, and an end. They didn't drag it out. And it paints a very intereresting, and disturbing, picture.

Having said that, you are most correct in the fact that Organized Crime has a cover story of benevolence that does not match the day to day operations of their soldiers. For every 'Prime Minister of the Mob' (Frank Costello) that holds all the judges and politicians in his pocket, there stands beside him a 'Lord High Executioner' (Costello's primary ally, Albert Anastasia) operating a little organization called Murder Inc.

I think that's the nature of shows brother. They always seem to lack in quality the longer they're on, except Breaking Bad. I'm probably not the best judge.

The contradictory nature of mobsters is what fascinates me so much. Mostly this is centered on the Italian Mafia since it is depicted more often in flims/tv/books. They all seem to passionately argue that they adhere to a code they hold sacred, their willingness to stand up for their family both personal and criminal,and how honorable they are. They claim to be religious, and family oriented, mostly killing their own or other criminals. This code is often romanticized not in just films/tv but books and in cultural perceptions as a whole. In reality is that they'll dismiss their code whenever it suits them if they have the power and backing of other gangster to achieve their own ends, the New York Italian Mafia is littered with examples. The pathology of this mindset is fascinating, because it isn't really cognitive dissonance, that implies that they're not aware of the contradictory behaviors and attitudes. Yet even when the behavior in question is absolutely against their own codes they find away to rationalize within the value system and traditions they claim to uphold. I can spend a lifetime reading about it and I'll never understand it.

In fairness some are truly pulled in to it as the famous line goes and do try to get out but those situations are rare.

 

[Andre Bolkonsky]

I think that's the nature of shows brother. They always seem to lack in quality the longer they're on, except Breaking Bad. I'm probably not the best judge.

The contradictory nature of mobsters is what fascinates me so much. Mostly this is centered on the Italian Mafia since it is depicted more often in flims/tv/books. They all seem to passionately argue that they adhere to a code they hold sacred, their willingness to stand up for their family both personal and criminal,and how honorable they are. They claim to be religious, and family oriented, mostly killing their own or other criminals. This code is often romanticized not in just films/tv but books and in cultural perceptions as a whole. In reality is that they'll dismiss their code whenever it suits them if they have the power and backing of other gangster to achieve their own ends, the New York Italian Mafia is littered with examples. The pathology of this mindset is fascinating, because it isn't really cognitive dissonance, that implies that they're not aware of the contradictory behaviors and attitudes. Yet even when the behavior in question is absolutely against their own codes they find away to rationalize within the value system and traditions they claim to uphold. I can spend a lifetime reading about it and I'll never understand it.

In fairness some are truly pulled in to it as the famous line goes and do try to get out but those situations are rare.

I could not agree more.

It is best said by two capos in a car together on an FBI tape I saw on a documentary someplace where these powerful made men are actively discussing how much they want their sons NOT to follow in their footsteps. And they question the morality using this axis. It stayed with me.

 

[Culann]

I could not agree more.

It is best said by two capos in a car together on an FBI tape I saw on a documentary someplace where these powerful made men are actively discussing how much they want their sons NOT to follow in their footsteps. And they question the morality using this axis. It stayed with me.

Can you remember the name of the documentary? Need to feed the obsession.