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Svantevid

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Krain, Styria, Cilli, Austria - History seen through the eyes of a Slovenian

This land has been much abused, even to the point of being part of Kindom of Croatia in official GC :D

So at least a few changes should be in order, I think, and I beg you to excuse me if I'm warming over some old discussions. All this based on the assumption that this land is in essence Austrian land of Krain, or Carniola, present day Slovenia.

1. Krain was always part of HRE.
2. Land product: there's no copper in Krain. Iron, however, was mined in the past. But it was mainly agricultural land, so perhaps grain or wine or sheep (although cows were always much more numerous, I think), or even naval supplies (even today, almost 50% of Slovenia is covered with woods)
3. It should in all cases be core province of Austria (after Steyer is gone, that is), since historically, it was all that time part of it (except for a very brief spell of Napoleon's Illyrical provinces)
4. Culture: I'm not proposing to make it slovene :D. But it is a problem. Historically, Krain had a mixture of german, italian and slovene culture, where peasant folk was predominantly slovenian, while upper classes were german, with fluctuating italian influences. During the timescope of the game, there were no national uprisings, so Austria shouldn't be penalised for owning Krain, and that leaves but two options: either Austria is given Krain's culture, or Krain's culture is made the same as Austria's (german, at present).
 
Last edited:

Svantevid

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I have decided to try my hand at doing some stuff myself. As I'm a complete newbie at modding, I apologise in advance for all mistakes and foolish questions I'm sure to perpetrate. My aim is to

- correct mistakes - unhistorical data and events connected with the province of Krain (or any province replacing it on the new map).

- add events and leaders connected with slovenian lands (austrian lands of Krain, Kaernten, Steier, Goertz, and Istria) to those of Austria and Steyer

- make a fantasy mod where Herman of Cilli isn't assasinated and manages to build an independent state.
 

Svantevid

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In the case of independent Cilli, I'd like to use KRN tag for it (the tag now seems to signify Kaernten)
 

Svantevid

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One thing no one seems to object to, is making Krain part of HRE. Do I need to submit the whole line from provinces.csv, or does the Council make the change, if it's accepted?
 

Toio

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I agree that Krain should be german , but as part of the HRE, unsure
 

unmerged(44390)

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Krain part of the HRE? Svantevid is right; historically it was part of the HRE.

However, the province Krain on the game map corresponds badly with the real world. In the real world Krain is not located where it is on the game map. If we include Krain in the HRE there will be a huge bump on the borders, a bump that didn't exist in the real world. I compared the game map with a map from my historical atlas.

I think this problem will be solved if we can agree to adopt MyMap into the game. The province of Carniola is inside the borders of the HRE.
 

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Yes, culture is problematic. All would be resolved if there was a slovenian culture. :)

As to the map: the province as drawn, would rather deserve the name of Croatia then Krain. But my reasononing is this: the map is innacurate, as was the case with the maps of that time, but there is no doubt what it represents, since the name of Krain is written on it (and Ljubljana given as its capital). And there's, historically, no reason whatsoever to exclude Krain from HRE, even if it causes a 'bump'. And I rather think - but am not certain, will have to check - that Istria, too, belonged to HRE.
 

Svantevid

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I started with graphics for Cilli:

shield_KRN.gif


smallshield_KRN.gif


flag_krn.jpg
 
Last edited:

Svantevid

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I intend to make an event in 1436, when Cilli bacame a princedom, where the player of Steyer could choose to have a revolt in Krain, or recognise Cilli's independence. In the later case an event would follow immediately, where he would choose to continue playing as Steyer or become Cilli.

In 1456 (death of Ulric II), there would be option to recognise Habsburgs as inheritors (become Austria or Styria), Frangepans (become Croatia), or a local familly (I'm currently considering Ungnads) to continue as fantasy Cilli.
 

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Svantevid said:
I intend to make an event in 1436, when Cilli bacame a princedom, where the player of Steyer could choose to have a revolt in Krain, or recognise Cilli's independence. In the later case an event would follow immediately, where he would choose to continue playing as Steyer or become Cilli.

In 1456 (death of Ulric II), there would be option to recognise Habsburgs as inheritors (become Austria or Styria), Frangepans (become Croatia), or a local familly (I'm currently considering Ungnads) to continue as fantasy Cilli.
It would certainly be great to have a sequence for the counts of Cilli. I had in fact been thinking about something like that while working on 15th century Hapsburg stuff a while back.
Were the Ungnads really possible successors? The lack of a realistic alternative to having it inherited by Styria was what made me question the point of including Cilli as a new country.
Since this might be of interest to you (and since I meant to do this already for a while), I will post what I had worked out and never got around to completing or posting here in the Sigismund of Luxemburg, Albrecht of Hapsburg, Ladislaus Postumus and their succession thread.
 

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Very good ideas in that thread.

Ungnads were just an old Carinthian familly, that's why I was thinking of them. But then I searched the geneologies today, and found that through Margareth, cousin of Ulrik III, the inheritance might go to the dukes of Teschen, and later to princes of Liechtenstein. That would make real persons to be fantasy rulers of Cilli.
There's of course the third option, a bastard of Frederik II, (probably named Hans), who could continue an invented line of the dukes of Cilli.
 
Last edited:

Svantevid

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My first attempt at making an event: :)

Code:
event = {
	id = 261020
	trigger = {
	owned = { province = 367 data = -1 } 
	control = { province = 367 data = -1 }	
	}
	random = NO
	country = PRM
	name = "Ernest the Iron fortifies Ljubljana"
	desc = "Perceiving the danger of increasing turkish threat, Ernest I the Iron let fortify the city of Ljubljana, capital of Carniola. His decision was proven to be correct: during the course of the 15th century Turks appeared before Ljubljana six times, attempting a siege on several occasions. But every time they found the city too well prepared and defended."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 10 month = june year = 1420 }
        offset = 90
        deathdate = { day = 10 month = june year = 1424 }

	action_a = {
		name = "We must prepare ourselves"
		command = { type = fortress which = 367 value = 1 }
		}

}
 

Svantevid

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Here is how I revorked the Dukes of Cilli event:

Code:
event = {
	id = 261004
	trigger = {
	owned = { province = 367 data = -1 } 
	}
	random = NO
	country = PRM
	name = "The dukes of Cilli"
	desc = "In 1396 count Hermann II of Cilli was in command of Styrian troops that took part in the Battle of Nicopolis. The Ottoman army won the battle decisively, but the count saved the life of the Hungarian king Sigismund of Luxemburg. A strong bond between the two men, which was further strengthened when Sigismund married Hermann's daughter Barbara, was created. In 1436 the Emperor Sigismund elevated the counts of Cilli to the rank of dukes. This triggered a feud with the Habsburg duke Frederick V, who was their formal liege lord."
	style = 1
	date = { day = 2 month = march year = 1436 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Fight the dukes"
		command = { type = relation which = HUN value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = BOH value = -50 }
		command = { type = relation which = ROM value = -50 }
		command = [ type = revoltrisk which = 85 value = 3 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 367 value = 5 }
                command = { type = revolt which = 367 }
                command = { type = revolt which = 367 }
                command = { type = revolt which = 367 }
		}
	action_b = {
		name = "Accept the decisions of Sigismund"
		command = { type = independence which = KRN } 
		}
	action_c = {
		name = "Let the dukes of Cilli rule our nation"
		command = { type = country which = KRN }
		command = { type = capital which = 367 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 366 }
		command = { type = addcore which = 368 }
		}
}
 

Svantevid

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Garbon said:
For future reference do not post discussion questions in the submission thread.

I'm sorry. How about a new thread titeled Ask the HC, or something similar.

As there was suspiciously little response in this thread, I wanted to put the question where it would be noticed.

And there's not really anything to discuss about it - I'm seeking HC's decision on whether an independent Cilli has any chance of being accepted, before I do all the details. Because if it has no chance, I'll rather do other events for Austria and Styria.
 
Last edited:

Garbon

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Norrefeldt said:
What's the case for an independent Cilli? It's been discussed before, and then it was decided that it wasn't a good idea, and the chances it would mess up the area was too big.
I think you need to convince us, with some facts.

Which is what I asked for in the tag thread, although you've still been reticent to provide them, Svantevid.
 

Khephren

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Norrefeldt said:
What's the case for an independent Cilli? It's been discussed before, and then it was decided that it wasn't a good idea, and the chances it would mess up the area was too big.
I think you need to convince us, with some facts.

I don't think it was ever decided it wasn't a good idea. Twoflower just never got around to it.
 

Garbon

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Khephren said:
I don't think it was ever decided it wasn't a good idea. Twoflower just never got around to it.

Twoflower stated recently that he never included it because he didn't see any plausible monarchs for the state past the actually passage of it into Hapsburg hands.

That being said, its still good to get a statement of purpose and intent from the person attempting to include a new nation.
 

Svantevid

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I don't think I can give you much more than what I wrote in the tag thread. It would bring little to the historical accuracy, and nothing past 1456, when Cilli would get inherited by Styria or Austria. As for plausible monarchs, see my previous post on the subject.

I believe that in vanilla KRN tag is used for making Krain a vassal under the name of Kaernten. If the tag is used for Cilli, that functionallity would be kept, even while being unlikely that an independent Krain would gat that name after the 15th century.