Kosova should be Albanian culture

[talilu]

To make things more simple:
Croats, Serbs, Bosnians = same people
Macedonians = floatant slavic mass, basically mix of Serbs and Bulgarians
Albanians = chechenya/dagestan thinking they are Illyrians*
Bulgarians = Turkic tribe + slavs
Greeks = Greeks

Spoiler: *

There are in fact a lot of suggestions that they came from present day chechenya/dagestan to balkans due to preassure from mongols/turks. In fact, first records of them from around 12th century state that there is around 100 families that live in the mountians and they grow cattle. Further more, there is an area of chechenya called Albania, and a lot of cities in Albania don't have names that originate in Albanian language, yet, they claim to be illyrian.

You can spin these things any way you want to serve your purpose. A nation is defined as a group of people with common history and sense of identity. As someone already pointed out: Albania didn't exist as a state in 1444, a large chunk of it wasn't even inhabited by Albanians, Skenderbeg himself had a Serbian mother, and his family, Kastrioti, were in fact Greeks.

*cough* Caucasian Albanian Language doesn't have anything to do with Albanian Language/People, not even Indo-European People. They are related to the Dagestanis and Chechens *cough*

 

[Kansai-kun]

*cough* Caucasian Albanian Language doesn't have anything to do with Albanian Language/People, not even Indo-European People. They are related to the Dagestanis and Chechens *cough*

It just two regions coincidentally having the same name - same with Caucasian Iberia and the Iberian Peninsula. :/

 

[staycool.]

Interesting. Do they have historic ties? I know linguistically Albanian is its own language group in the indo european language family, not that culture and language are the same thing. I assume the grouping is all due to gameplay reasons so DPX probably had a reason for that decision. I only suggest byz cultural group due to proximity, if the slavic one is too troublesome.

Well, here are some random quotes and bits of information, i'll put them under spoilers to avoid big text wall (keep in mind that i found this on the internet, i take no credit for information listed below):

Spoiler: Language

Language

"The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari".
This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar".
Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR".
Taken together with the Shqiptar-Albanian toponyms on the territory of the former Caucasian Albania, this theory on the etymology of "Shqipatr" becomes more plausable."

Chechen=naana,Albanian=nene,English=mother
Udi,Udish=Baba,Albanian=babe,English=father
Chechen=Ysh ,Albanian=Ishin,english=they were
Chechen=shu,Albanian=ju,English=you

Chechen leader= Shamil Basaj(ev).
Basaj is similar or even same as Gegaj,Muljaj..etc,Albanian surnames.

Spoiler: Random geographical information

In the republic of Georgia, in the Caucasus, on the terriory of the former Caucasian Albania, from where the Avar Khanate once had its capital, there is a village named: "Arnauti".
This is the name by which Serbs, Greeks, Turks, Macedonians and Montenegrin Serbs refer to Albanians in their respective langauges.
There is also village in Georgia named "Bushati" - which is the name of an Albanian tribe ("fis") around Lake Skadar.
There are three villages named: "Geguti", "Gegeni" and "Gegi".
"Ghegheni" is the name designated to Albanians who live north of the Shkumbi River in Albania proper.

Spoiler: when they are mentioned in historical records

Before the Turkish conquest of the Balkans, history does not record the words as Shqiptars or Arnauts.
History tell us that the Shqiptars fought against the Arbanasians.
The ethnonym applied to the people now known as Albanians is first attested from the 11th century (e.g. Anna Komnene, Alexiad 4.8.4), although such a nominal connection does not prove an actual link to the Illyrian tribe. The first reference to a lingua albanesca dates to the later 13th century.

April 989 AD – The Varangians aided Basil in his victory over Bardas Phocas’ lieutenant, Delphinas, at Scutari, on the Asian side of the Bosphorus.
Arnavutköy (meaning "Albanian village" in Turkish)

Historical fact: the Arbanites in medieval Balkan Kingdoms and Empires were not numerous.
Historical fact:the expansion of the Arnauts occurs only in the last 250 years, with the great help of the Turkish state.
Historical fact:large disparities in terms of number of Arbanites on the Macedonians , Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians in the Balkans in the time before the arrival of the Turks.
Historical fact:no historical sources for any Shqiptar,Geg or Arnaut before Turkish conquest of Balkans.
conclusion:
It is difficult to assume that there is a great Albanian or Arbanit ethnic core of many centuries ago.

Spoiler: a map

And so on and so on. I also want to point out that the records of actual Illyrian language that we have bear no resemblance to albanian whatsoever. Entire Illyrian idea was popularized by Enver Hoxga in 1950s, and Teuta, Illyrian name now common in Albania, was nowhere to be found prior to the start of Albanian romanticism.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Yes Illyrian claim/connection is probably my all time favorite, second only to claims that modern day Macedonians have something to do with Alexander.

The Albanians are from Caucasus thing, to my knowledge, is just a theory, originating from Serbian Albanian-hating quasi historians/nationalists. Id take that with a very heavy grain of salt.

 

[staycool.]

Yes Illyrian claim/connection is probably my all time favorite, second only to claims that modern day Macedonians have something to do with Alexander.

The Albanians are from Caucasus thing, to my knowledge, is just a theory, originating from Serbian Albanian-hating quasi historians/nationalists. Id take that with a very heavy grain of salt.

You may as well be correct, but everything regarding Albanians points to a small group of people, that were not mentioned before 11th century, never created a national state and still have forms of tribalism in their society, majority of their toponyms is not of their native language. said native language has no words for naval terms etc. Idea of Albania in modern form is not mentioned before Berlin congress. Whoever they are, it is obvious that Albanians are not natives, they came from somewhere to the balkans around 10th century.

 

[GeneralPetrov]

But again, and i think youre missing my point somehow, all that, its their own business. And nobody's else.

If they want to raise statues and have their EU membership vetoed, let them. In 20 years theyll change their minds. Or not.

True, I just kind of feel sorry for the non-lunatic-nationalists in Macedonia.

Back on topic though...

I think there are two solutions to what group Albania should be in:

1. Remain part of the South Slavic group, for gameplay reasons more than anything.

2. Make it an entirely separate from any other culture group like Hungarian.

 

[DanubianCossak]

You may as well be correct, but everything regarding Albanians points to a small group of people, that were not mentioned before 11th century, never created a national state and still have forms of tribalism in their society, majority of their toponyms is not of their native language. said native language has no words for naval terms etc. Idea of Albania in modern form is not mentioned before Berlin congress. Whoever they are, it is obvious that Albanians are not natives, they came from somewhere to the balkans around 10th century.

You have to differentiate official historical sources and accepted theories, from those told by Serbs in the last ~20 years with usually very heavy application of beer on top.

I have heard those "stories" too, that during the time of Dusan Silni Albanians were nothing but shepherds living in mountains, and that he graciously invited them to live in his land during some conflict bla bla bla. All of that is just drunken theories and chauvinism. Theres plenty of that about Croats as well.

Most of that stuff originate from this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Deretić

 

[staycool.]

You have to differentiate official historical sources and accepted theories, from those told by Serbs in the last ~20 years with usually very heavy application of beer on top.

I have heard those "stories" too, that during the time of Dusan Silni Albanians were nothing but shepherds living in mountains, and that he graciously invited them to live in his land during some conflict bla bla bla. All of that is just drunken theories and chauvinism. Theres plenty of that about Croats as well.

Most of that stuff originate from this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jovan_I._Deretić

I consider Deretic a clown at best, no offence to actual clowns btw. And yes, i am familiar with wild and most often retarded historical theories of serbian nationalist pseudo-historians, they make for good comedy, and all tavern patriots make me sick. But in case of Albanians it just made sense.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

Sorry, but all the evidence indicates that Albanians have been in the same general area that they are now since Roman times.

There is a massive, massive amount of Latin loanwords in Albanian, and they've undergone many of the same sound changes that native Albanian words have - meaning that they've been in the language for a very long time. Definitely before the Middle Ages, when your average Albanian shepherd wouldn't have classical-era Latin to borrow from.

I can pull a few random similarities between literally any two languages on Earth, and get the average linguistically ignorant person to think that there's some deep connection there. It's especially stupid to bring up words for mother and father and the like - the Chinese call their moms and dads "mama" and "baba/papa", not because of an ancient English-Chinese relation, but because those words are constructed from baby babble, that's the same in all languages.

If I so wanted, I could even make Serbian appear to be a long-lost relative of Turkish - and not just by using Turkish loanwords. That's the level of the linguistic non-evidence that you're bringing up.

EDIT: Now, I do recall reading some much more sane theories that Albanians may have been hanging out further inland in the Balkans before moving to their present location. Could explain odd toponyms (although we see non-native toponyms almost everywhere in Europe), and lack of naval terminology. But nobody who knows anything about the matter would place Albanians as outside of the Balkan region at any time during the last 2000 years.

 

[Afinati]

Yes I know this is a tense one. No I'm not trying to start an ethnic conflict on the forums. Objectively there is little to no evidence to label Kosovo as Serbian, in addition this leaves Albania a OPM culture while combing Bosniaks and Serbians. If Bosnia is to be Serbian why can't Kosovo be Albanian?

Language map of Albanian speakers, dark blue is majority light blue minority

Wow, that's a lot of disagrees. I was just gonna suggest that tiny cultures suck, since cultures like Albanian can rarely become accepted since there's so little development attached to their provinces. Maybe not the horse to back here.... XD

 

[Slava Slavyanam]

kosovo was serbian until modern times and it is one of the cores of the serbian state,
just like serbs and croats are 2 totally distinct peoples and bosnians, montenegrins and slovenians didn't even exist until modern history;

your Western egoistic selfcenteredness and lack of knowledge are, frankly, pathetic, so go heal your complexes somewhere else until you learn history

 

[staycool.]

Sorry, but all the evidence indicates that Albanians have been in the same general area that they are now since Roman times.

There is a massive, massive amount of Latin loanwords in Albanian, and they've undergone many of the same sound changes that native Albanian words have - meaning that they've been in the language for a very long time. Definitely before the Middle Ages, when your average Albanian shepherd wouldn't have classical-era Latin to borrow from.

I can pull a few random similarities between literally any two languages on Earth, and get the average linguistically ignorant person to think that there's some deep connection there. It's especially stupid to bring up words for mother and father and the like - the Chinese call their moms and dads "mama" and "baba/papa", not because of an ancient English-Chinese relation, but because those words are constructed from baby babble, that's the same in all languages.

If I so wanted, I could even make Serbian appear to be a long-lost relative of Turkish - and not just by using Turkish loanwords. That's the level of the linguistic non-evidence that you're bringing up.

EDIT: Now, I do recall reading some much more sane theories that Albanians may have been hanging out further inland in the Balkans before moving to their present location. Could explain odd toponyms (although we see non-native toponyms almost everywhere in Europe), and lack of naval terminology. But nobody who knows anything about the matter would place Albanians as outside of the Balkan region at any time during the last 2000 years.

Here is a full interview with a persecuted Albanian scholar, linguist etc, i suggest you read it, the man has made quite a renown. He has doctorate degrees in albanological studies from universities in Skoplje AND Tirana. This man has also been imprisoned almost countless times by the reguime of Enver Hoxha.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1120887/posts

Spoiler: a small cut out

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - It became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies ... I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in albanology has said this to me. They still continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous pelasgoillyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor aret they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and illyrian origin. Via those lies they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital. The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the albanian pseudo science about their illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours

Also, to your claim that Albanian has a lot of loan words from Latin, explain how come it has no or insignificant numbers of loan words from ancient greek? Could it be that they borrowed those words from Italian, like they did with many slavic words as well? Caucassus or not, it is clear that Albanians are not inedigenous people of the Balkan peninsula, and most persumably, they came around X century or later.

Only the Greeks can claim the title of the only inedigenous nation in the Balkans.

 

[talilu]

Here is a full interview with a persecuted Albanian scholar, linguist etc, i suggest you read it, the man has made quite a renown. He has doctorate degrees in albanological studies from universities in Skoplje AND Tirana. This man has also been imprisoned almost countless times by the reguime of Enver Hoxha.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1120887/posts

Spoiler: a small cut out

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - It became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies ... I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in albanology has said this to me. They still continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous pelasgoillyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Puscariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor aret they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and illyrian origin. Via those lies they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital. The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the albanian pseudo science about their illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours

Also, to your claim that Albanian has a lot of loan words from Latin, explain how come it has no or insignificant numbers of loan words from ancient greek? Could it be that they borrowed those words from Italian, like they did with many slavic words as well? Caucassus or not, it is clear that Albanians are not inedigenous people of the Balkan peninsula, and most persumably, they came around X century or later.

Only the Greeks can claim the title of the only inedigenous nation in the Balkans.

Well, if the Dacian-Thracian migration theory is correct, Albanians would be natives aswell. IMHO that theory seems like the most logical compared to others;

-Illyrians lived at the coast but Albanian words related to sea and naval matters are mostly loans, which would suggest that they migrated from an inland area (Skopje/East Bulgaria etc)
-Caucasian Theory is honestly outright ridicilous, Caucasian Albanian Language isn't even Indo-European, why would some non Indo-European people randomly migrate from Caucasus to Albania and create a distinct branch of Indo European? Also how could they?

Illyrian sounds probably more appealing to teach children instead of saying "We came from there and we aren't natives and such", but none of the Balkans is made out of non-migrationary peoples anyways :/

 

[DanubianCossak]

Greeks? @ non migratory people in Balkans

 

[talilu]

Doesn't Pelasgians count as replaced by Greeks? That would make the migrationary aswell. Although I know the views on Pelasgian issue is kind of mixed, some say they were Greeks but some say they were totally different. Well, it's probably too deep in history to explain at present time.

 

[Will Steel]

Greeks? @ non migratory people in Balkans

Haven't you heard about 12th century BC migrations of a huge amount of Dorians and other peoples, that eventually became 'Greeks'?

 

[DanubianCossak]

Haven't you heard about 12th century BC migrations of a huge amount of Dorians and other peoples, that eventually became 'Greeks'?

I thought we were talking about migrations AD.

 

[staycool.]

I thought we were talking about migrations AD.

^
this

Almost everything points that they migrated in the middle ages, and that it wasn't a large group, not as large as slavs or magyars for example. Their population untill recent centuries has always been extremely low compared to others, there are no archeological findings that will put them as indigenous population of that area, they are first mentioned in 11th century, first books in Albanian are from 15th century and the language itself has more loan words than native ones. Toponymes in Albania suggest the same.

Tbh, there is a big question on how really objective any of these theories are, but one thing is for certain, they are not Illyrians.

 

[Anatur]

I dont get where the theory of them being illyrians came from,when the slavs migrated to the adriatic coast they found some remenants of coastal towns that were still heavily romanized and those were the only things close to illyrians to be found,we did assimilate or destroy them thou(oopsie )

If the Albanians were trully descendants of romanized illyrians then one would expect them to have a bit more developed culture and society above simple tribal mountain hermits.

 

[NetherViking]

If the Albanians were trully descendants of romanized illyrians then one would expect them to have a bit more developed culture and society above simple tribal mountain hermits.

Whoa dude. Non-roman cultures of the world would like a word with you.