Korean into Chinese Group?

[Grand Historian]

Pretty self explanatory. Would it be possible to move Korean Culture into the Chinese group? It's pretty awkward being in a culture group of its own, and given that historically Korea has always been in China's shadow, religiously, economically, legalistically, linguistically, militarily and culturally, it would be historically accurate as well.

Also, it would be a shadow buff to everyone in the region, make it more difficult for AI Japan to steamroll East Asia, and finally not leave it on it's own - the Miao culture has been folded into Chinese with 1.16, so I believe it would be following the precedent already set with other shifts such as Breton into French.

Also, for primarily gameplay reasons, I feel Korea should have a few tags added to the region so it can be broken up. To quote someone more knowledgeable than me on this:

However if new tags were a must have, then Goryeo and Silla would be the best. Goryeo in the north, Silla in the south.

In 1444 barely 52 years passed since Joseon dynasty replaced Goryeo and it was the first state to unify the peninsula. What's more it shared its name with ancient kingdom of Goguryeo (known also as Goryeo or Guryeo).

Silla on the other hand is the only other Korean state which encompassed most of Korean peninsula and for centuries it was portrayed in traditional historiography as the state which unified Korea (often disregarding Balhae).

Out of the two, Goryeo would make the most sense, and can encompass most of the north while Korea remains in the center and south. Silla, as having cores in the south, is a distinct possibility, and would be good for Japanese vassal-feeding strategies.

Edit: And no, this is not a proposal to split Korean culture, merely move it into the Chinese group and possibly give it more tags.

 

[Maq]

Pretty self explanatory. Would it be possible to move Korean Culture into the Chinese group? It's pretty awkward being in a culture group of its own, and given that historically Korea has always been in China's shadow, religiously, economically, legalistically, linguistically, militarily and culturally, it would be historically accurate as well.

What would be the gameplay advantage of such a change?

 

[Grand Historian]

What would be the gameplay advantage of such a change?

It would be a slight buff to Korea and Ming (and later Qing), and would make the region more homogenous. Would also be a slight delay for the Japanese.

 

[Danfish77]

I think it would make more sense to divide Korean into 2 or more cultures, based on dialect (or other regionalisms that my brief Wikipedia check did not uncover). I would propose the same for Japanese, perhaps splitting off Kansai.

 

[Grand Historian]

I think it would make more sense to divide Korean into 2 or more cultures, based on dialect (or other regionalisms that my brief Wikipedia check did not uncover). I would propose the same for Japanese, perhaps splitting off Kansai.

There wasn't any Korean split during this period to my knowledge (in fact Korean as a written language was invented in the early days of EU4), but Japanese should be balkanized by region, much like Chinese was.

 

[Maq]

There wasn't any Korean split during this period to my knowledge (in fact Korean as a language was invented in the early days of EU4), but Japanese should be balkanized by region, much like Chinese was.

That makes me ask the same question: to what purpose? Making Japanese unification more difficult, perhaps?

 

[Grand Historian]

That makes me ask the same question: to what purpose? Making Japanese unification more difficult, perhaps?

That's part of it; Japan is way too stable in game. The other part is historical accuracy; a monolithic Japanese culture was a (failed) Meiji-era idea, not during the Sengoku or Edo eras.

So yes, both of those points are about historical accuracy and gameplay/balancing reasons.

 

[Danfish77]

There wasn't any Korean split during this period to my knowledge...

I can't find any major cultural or linguistic divisions on a regional basis, either. If there's nothing to split the Korean group, it would be my preference that it be merged with another group, Japanese being the most likely candidate.

(in fact Korean as a language was invented in the early days of EU4)

Oh, not by a long shot. You're probably thinking of the Hangul writing system, which was indeed invented in 1443; there's a decision for it in-game, I believe. But no, Korean as a language stretches back a wee bit farther.

...but Japanese should be balkanized by region, much like Chinese was.

I'm not sure how many are really needed, but at least three make sense (Eastern, Western, and Ryukyuan just for Okinawa), possibly with an expansion to five with Kyushu and Tohoku. Anything more than that and I'd have to delve a lot deeper.

 

[Grand Historian]

I can't find any major cultural or linguistic divisions on a regional basis, either. If there's nothing to split the Korean group, it would be my preference that it be merged with another group, Japanese being the most likely candidate.


Oh, not by a long shot. You're probably thinking of the Hangul writing system, which was indeed invented in 1443; there's a decision for it in-game, I believe. But no, Korean as a language stretches back a wee bit farther.

Point being is that Chinese was still the written language before Hangul, and the language of the most of the populace at game start, so it would make far more sense for Korean to be merged with Chinese than Japanese.

 

[jacobsighs]

I agree with moving Korean to the Chinese culture group.

I oppose splitting Korean into more cultures.

I oppose splitting Japanese into more cultures.

 

[Zelius]

Point being is that Chinese was still the written language before Hangul, and the language of the most of the populace at game start, so it would make far more sense for Korean to be merged with Chinese than Japanese.

Major problem I see with this is that Ming, being a cultural union of Chinese cultures, would have a HUGE opinion malus of Korea, start fabricating immediately - Historical Friends or not - and then eat Korea, unless I have misunderstood the mechanics of the 'wants your provinces' modifier.

 

[Grand Historian]

Major problem I see with this is that Ming, being a cultural union of Chinese cultures, would have a HUGE opinion malus of Korea, start fabricating immediately - Historical Friends or not - and then eat Korea, unless I have misunderstood the mechanics of the 'wants your provinces' modifier.

I'm pretty sure 'wants your provinces' has little to do with culture and more with the value of a province.

Edit: Well, I stand corrected.

 

[Maq]

value of a province

What exactly do you mean by 'value'? Base tax?

 

[Zelius]

I'm pretty sure 'wants your provinces' has little to do with culture and more with the value of a province.

I'm quite confident that culture does play a part; you often see this with militaristic vassals who fabricate within their culture group (and, I believe, accepted cultures). + somewhat anecdotally holding a French province that borders France, and on which they have no Claim, is just about grounds for instant alliance break.

 

[Danfish77]

Point being is that Chinese was still the written language before Hangul, and the language of the most of the populace at game start

Okay, this is an outright fabrication. Koreans in historical Koreas (for EU4's time frame, the Joseon dynasty) were majority ethnic Korean, and the majority spoke Korean. Korean used Chinese characters, Hanzi, for its writing system before the creation of hangul and it continued to be used well into the present day. Using Chinese characters does not mean one speaks Chinese. "Chinese" isn't really a single language, either, and no Chinese dialect/language was spoken as a first language by a majority in Korea during the EU4's timeframe, currently... or ever, really.

 

[Grand Historian]

Okay, this is an outright fabrication. Koreans in historical Koreas (for EU4's time frame, the Joseon dynasty) were majority ethnic Korean, and the majority spoke Korean. Korean used Chinese characters, Hanzi, for its writing system before the creation of hangul and it continued to be used well into the present day. Using Chinese characters does not mean one speaks Chinese. "Chinese" isn't really a single language, either, and no Chinese dialect/language was spoken as a first language by a majority in Korea during the EU4's timeframe, currently... or ever, really.

I'm not saying Korean were Chinese, I'm saying they used Chinese. I don't know about your own information, but I've actually talked to Korean nationals about this and they have told me this. And you're still not showing any evidence for why Korea should be in it's own culture group; culture transcends language.

 

[SignedName]

There wasn't any Korean split during this period to my knowledge (in fact Korean as a language was invented in the early days of EU4), but Japanese should be balkanized by region, much like Chinese was.

Well, the language wasn't invented, but the alphabet. But to say Korean is Chinese group because they used Chinese script, you would have to include Japanese in the Chinese group too. But if Manchu is in Chinese group, Korean should definitely be in Chinese group too.

 

[Grand Historian]

Well, the language wasn't invented, but the alphabet. But to say Korean is Chinese group because they used Chinese script, you would have to include Japanese in the Chinese group too. But if Manchu is in Chinese group, Korean should definitely be in Chinese group too.

Well, Japanese has always been more separate from China (and needs to be divided up). And the argument for Korea's inclusion into Chinese isn't a purely linguistic one, as stated before; it's also religiously, economically, legalistically, linguistically, militarily and culturally akin, not to mention it would be getting rid of another one-culture culture group.

 

[zdlugasz]

I'm pretty sure 'wants your provinces' has little to do with culture and more with the value of a province.

What is the first think that AI Austria does? It starts fabricating on Salzburg (and then DoWs). AI is programmed to expand into their own culture area (it was even confirmed somewhere by devs).

 

[Grand Historian]

What is the first think that AI Austria does? It starts fabricating on Salzburg (and then DoWs). AI is programmed to expand into their own culture area (it was even confirmed somewhere by devs).

Yes, I was wrong on that, but I don't think this is that pertaining to the topic.