KNOWN ISSUE: Large Naval shipyards

[swilhelm73]

Large Naval shipyards

You need the tech large naval shipyards to build battleships. As both Spain and the USSR *have* battleships, IMO, they should have the tech.

 

[unmerged(12685)]

That would make way too much sense...

 

[unmerged(13601)]

As a country you could also buy a battleship / carrier from a country that can build them.

 

[King]

Re: Large Naval shipyards

Originally posted by swilhelm73
You need the tech large naval shipyards to build battleships. As both Spain and the USSR *have* battleships, IMO, they should have the tech.

Did Spain actually build the battleships it had, or did they buy them from someone else? The Russians on the other hand could not complete the Cruiser the Germans gave them under the terms of the M-R pact suggests that perhaps the knowledge of large ship yards was lost during the revolution?

 

[swilhelm73]

According to these webpages they were made by the Spanish at the Ferrol Shipyards in Spain;

http://www.warships1.com/SPANbb01_Espana_specs.htm
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmore/spain/battleships/espana/espana.html

So, IMO, the Spanish should have the tech...

According to this webpage, the Soviets started building two, and planned two more battleships shortly before WWII;

http://home.att.net/~wellsbrothers/Battleships/SovietBBtable.html


This webpage makes the notion of home development by the Soviets sound dubious;

http://64.124.221.191/furashita/soviet_f.htm

So it sounds like the best way to mod this would be for the Soviets to have the tech, but lose it in the event of war with Italy. That isn't going to happen I imagine though on Paradox's behalf...so I guess for the Soviets it makes since not to have the tech...

 

[w0ss]

Originally posted by swilhelm73


<<<<<<<SNIP>>>>

This webpage makes the notion of home development by the Soviets sound dubious;

http://64.124.221.191/furashita/soviet_f.htm

So it sounds like the best way to mod this would be for the Soviets to have the tech, but lose it in the event of war with Italy. That isn't going to happen I imagine though on Paradox's behalf...so I guess for the Soviets it makes since not to have the tech...

After reading that all my WW2 history lessons/books I read flashed before me.... Japan and Russian naval battle? Turkey and Russian naval battle? I thought everything I had known was a lie... Then google saved me(again)

http://64.124.221.191/furashita/furamain.htm#ijn

It's all made up lol

 

[King]

Well thanks for the info. Now we could get into very long arguements about this. So let me put to you my point of view.

I am not happy at all about the idea of adding the large Navalship yard tech to Spain. The purpose of the Tech is to put Battleships and Aircraft carriers out of the reach of minors. This is pointless if the minors get the tech anyway.

On the USSR, why exactly should they loose the tech if at war with Italy? Are all their large Dock yards manned my Italians. Seriously I am not clear on why this shoudl be. Secondly the USSR never actually completed any of the ships started, I don't know if this qualifies as actually have the tech.

 

[swilhelm73]

Originally posted by w0ss
After reading that all my WW2 history lessons/books I read flashed before me.... Japan and Russian naval battle? Turkey and Russian naval battle? I thought everything I had known was a lie... Then google saved me(again)

http://64.124.221.191/furashita/furamain.htm#ijn

It's all made up lol

Well, the last "Grand Fleet" stuff is - but the Sovietski Soyuz and Sovietskaya Ukraina were real ships, well real ships in progress at least.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmore/russia/battleships/sovietskysoyuz/sovietskayaukraina.html

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/aj.cashmore/russia/battleships/sovietskysoyuz/sovietskysoyuz.html

 

[swilhelm73]

Originally posted by King
Well thanks for the info. Now we could get into very long arguements about this. So let me put to you my point of view.

I am not happy at all about the idea of adding the large Navalship yard tech to Spain. The purpose of the Tech is to put Battleships and Aircraft carriers out of the reach of minors. This is pointless if the minors get the tech anyway.

My interest was originally drawn because Spain can't get most of the important naval techs without researching Battleships. Specifically, Blue Water Doctrine requires researching Basic BB 150 MM and Basic BB 350 MM (along with basic cruiser).

It seemed silly that Spain had Battleships, and should generally get basic BB research, but couldn't build BBs unless they spent the enormous sum on the Large Naval Shipyards tech - especially after I saw that their battleships were built in a Spanish shipyard...

As you note the AI won't build any BBs anyway, since it used the default.ai. They didn't in IRL, but then again, they didn't really fight in WWII. However, when they enter in WWII in HOI, which they do every game pretty much, AI or Human, they are an important naval power...

Originally posted by King
On the USSR, why exactly should they loose the tech if at war with Italy? Are all their large Dock yards manned my Italians. Seriously I am not clear on why this shoudl be. Secondly the USSR never actually completed any of the ships started, I don't know if this qualifies as actually have the tech.

Well, actually, the only info I could find on who was building the Soviet BBs listed Italian workmen and designers. Obviously, when Germany ended the Pact this ended, and the Soviets never finished the BBs.

 

[King]

Originally posted by swilhelm73
My interest was originally drawn because Spain can't get most of the important naval techs without researching Battleships. Specifically, Blue Water Doctrine requires researching Basic BB 150 MM and Basic BB 350 MM (along with basic cruiser).

It seemed silly that Spain had Battleships, and should generally get basic BB research, but couldn't build BBs unless they spent the enormous sum on the Large Naval Shipyards tech - especially after I saw that their battleships were built in a Spanish shipyard...

As you note the AI won't build any BBs anyway, since it used the default.ai. They didn't in IRL, but then again, they didn't really fight in WWII. However, when they enter in WWII in HOI, which they do every game pretty much, AI or Human, they are an important naval power...

I see your point about Spain however I am still reluctant to add it. The Spanish battleships were on the small side. For example the Cruiser Prinz Eugen was twice the length of the Spanish Battleships. What I would really liek to see is proof that SPain had the kindof ship yard that was capable for building a ship on the scale of the KGV or the Scharnhorst both of which were over twice the wieght of the Spanish Battleships.

As a personal opinion I wouldn't of given the PSanish battleships. I woudl of given them big cruisers.

Originally posted by swilhelm73

Well, actually, the only info I could find on who was building the Soviet BBs listed Italian workmen and designers. Obviously, when Germany ended the Pact this ended, and the Soviets never finished the BBs.

There is no way to removve a tech of osmeone once they have gotton it. Which leaves us with a problem here. The cost woudl represtnt the Soviets finding thier workmen and designers (which sounds fair) but at the same time they did have all these Italians working for them. I am open to suggestions here.

 

[Vulture]

I can promise I am currently looking into these things... Cheers

 

[swilhelm73]

Well, info on the net is scarce on Ferrol to say the least. Do we have any regular HOI players/posters from Spain to query perhaps?

Here is some modern news on Ferrol possibly building pocket CVs;

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/2776/noticias_i.htm

The Scharnhorst's displacement was 26,000 tons, and the pocket CVs they mention in the webpage are 23,000 and 27,000 tons. Though who knows what changes have occured at the shipyard since 1945...

According to this webpage the Spaniards had planned on a number of 21,000 ton BBs, presumably at Ferrol, in 1913

http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/battleships/othr_dr.htm#10

And apparently from 80% of the hits I've found they are building some AEGIS Frigates right now.

So after reading this, I would probably still give Spain the LNS tech, but change their BBs to Basic Cruisers (but not give them this tech) to represent them as Heavy Cruisers/Pocket BBs...IMO of course.

 

[unmerged(13601)]

About the USSR problem, you could give the USSR the Large Naval Shipyard tech partially reseached, so it is in the research list at the beginning of a scenario.

 

[Vulture]

I know that Wineman... I will look into the missing naval techs this weekend to make sure they correspond with the OOB's...