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whosthebestcop

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Just wanted to ask a question that has absolutely nothing to do with the history of medieval times.

Let's just say that the game is 3-5% off for true heavy cavalry numbers. Does it actually have any effect on actual game play? Seems everyone is getting caught up in history and real numbers but if heavy cavalry was increased by 5%, in game, would it even matter? Would it actually change anything in the current battle system?
 

Alerias

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Just wanted to ask a question that has absolutely nothing to do with the history of medieval times.

Let's just say that the game is 3-5% off for true heavy cavalry numbers. Does it actually have any effect on actual game play? Seems everyone is getting caught up in history and real numbers but if heavy cavalry was increased by 5%, in game, would it even matter? Would it actually change anything in the current battle system?

Well heavy cavalry is a pretty strong unit, and as such increasing its prevalence would make countries with knights a little better off compared to countries who dont have any.
 

Grave Digger

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Well heavy cavalry is a pretty strong unit, and as such increasing its prevalence would make countries with knights a little better off compared to countries who dont have any.

I don't see balancing issues. Just make the buildings with heavy cav generate monthly costs. If you can afford it you can build more of them.
 

NewbieOne

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Sorry if this has been said, I only read first couple of posts. Thought I would just clear a few things up as I teach history at a high level.

* Knight is the term for a noble and did not really mean that this man would fight in full plate and horse back. Full plate armour was stupidly expensive ( Imagine in todays terms kitting your best guys out in something similar to Batman's outfit in regard to protection. Knight was more the term for a man of noble birth or who had aquired this title through deeds to a kingdom. He would have generally fought on horse but would ; for game purposes, be considered Light Cavalry. Your average Count or even Duke could not field any heavy cavalry due to the insane cost of not only arming but also training these men ( riding a horse at pace in something as heavy as full plate AND timing your attacks on an enemy takes years of training which costs money.)

You could have a knight in less than plate, especially in the crusading era, when chainmail was the norm. Later on, what used to be "heavy" in the previous centuries would be considered light. I suppose you could go down some way from full plate and still qualify, especially in poorer countries or with less discriminating princes. But you couldn't be too lightly armoured as knighthood was too closely tied to tenure by chivalry, i.e. holding land in exchange for the feudal service of showing up in knight gear. No gear, no tenure. (You'd have a short life expectancy being the brave chainshirt owner in the middle of two fully plated parties crushing into each other.)

* The only "TRUE" heavy cavalry of the period would have been Teutonic or Crusader Knights.

Not really, those were feudal levies like any other, roughly the same organisation etc. A pure heavy cav force is created by sending all the non-heavy-cav servants back home.

Battle of Courtrai had 2500 heavy cav out of 8000 total in the french army.
It's impossible to simulate this in the game in its current state.

Again, it would be doable by not raising the lesser levies out of all the levies that you have available in theory.

Yet, someone has armoured those about three thousand guys who are heavy cavalry in the Knights Templar in the game. And another three thousand for the Knights of St John. That's a pretty massive expenditure of allegedly hyper-expensive armour there, paid by someone, and they are so many (and reinforcing constantly!) that it can't just be lesser sons of characters of baron level and above. It has to be common knights. And if common knights can afford one, a baron must be able to afford way more than that, and higher nobles even more.

The passable equipment for a knight cost more or less one village (or rather the seigneural rights to it in practice). Which wasn't actually that much.

And besides, if the defintion of heavy cavalry in-game really would mean full plate armour, it would mean that the first full plate armoured guys appear already around 1100. Which is blatantly anachronistic.

Depends. The late-Roman and Byzantine kataphraktoi, clibanarii and their even older Persian predecessors would get close to that.

Sorry but this is so annoying and incredible that I have to reply to this post before completely reading through this topic...

1) A knight is not necessarily noble (as a previous poster already mentionned, there are such things as ministeriali who were serf knights (and this system is not unique to in the HRE, there are clear examples in Flanders for instance also similar systems in France). Note also that not all noblemen are knights in the strict terms. Certainly early in the medieval period knights and nobility tended to be entirely separate. Later on knighthood became ever more codified and controlled meaning that by the end of the middle ages every knight was indeed also of noble birth (but not every nobleman in arms a knight)...

1. Depends how you define noble. If you define "noble" the English way, not even a duke's wife or eldest son is a noble. If you go by German specifications, those are all ranks of descendants of previous tribal elite from times immemorial (Uradel), supplemented by eldest creations and finally Briefadel, i.e. the paper-made guys (with patents). German nobility included two lesser categories than knights, the Edle (like squire but more prestigious) and totally untitled. Also Italian nobility includes a knight as a rank (Cavaliere) above a plain Nobile or city Patrician (also a noble but low-ranking). French nobility were just descendants of the chivalric class or higher nobles, in perpetuity, with plenty of room for people below the station of a knight (ecuyer, i.e. squire, is the basic nobility of the French system and the systems derived from it). Polish nobility were essentially clans plus new creations generally similar to getting knighted.

The English definition is the one that is off. Nobody else in Europe defines nobility like that (i.e. more strictly and exclusively than aristocracy is defined in the continent, who are normally the top of nobility). England is the only country in which you can be legally a commoner after ruling the same castle your father did and his father before him and his father too back to William the Conqueror (this must be actually worse than living in a republic that just doesn't legally care who you are descended from, I guess).

In France, if you knighted a peasant, he was a noble, except that later on you needed the king's authority to knight a peasant. Generally, the conferment of knighthood was restricted as it became more and more a rank of nobility.

Therefore, outside England (where the definitions changed over time from primarily a stricter definiton of gentry, that used to be strict enough to correspond with continental nobility), you can't really have a non-noble knight (although you can have a knight without hereditary nobility, e.g. the lowest category of Knights of Malta being the Knights of Magistral Grace, or the Equites Aurati, i.e. golden knights, similar to the current British knight bachelor). Basically, knighting that dude makes him a low noble if he hadn't already been.

On the other hand, you could probably have a non-noble heavy cavalryman, although that would have been rare (rich squires when knighthood stopped being a right of passage into adulthood for the theoretically entitled people, such as in 15th century France or England after the social changes; rich burghers when they were allowed the comfort of knightly equipment if they could afford it but without gaining the full status etc.).

As for the German ministeriales, they were actually nobility, although the lowest of the low and not particularly respected by the more prestigious nobility. They were actually technically slaves (they did not have personal freedom) but they were nobles (not unlike a prisoner of war). In fact, you could theoretically become a duke without gaining personal freedom and basically remaining the king's slave, although I guess this lack of freedom would fall into desuetude (stop being mentioned and relied upon) in such a case.

Also, generally, you would have a hard time becoming a knight if you couldn't afford the equipment or be gifted with it along with the honour, although, as I said, some stuff knights wore in the later middle ages would probably qualify as light armour at that period and some of the heavy armour from the crusading era would qualify as light armour when heavy started to mean full plate or close, I guess.

I don't see balancing issues. Just make the buildings with heavy cav generate monthly costs. If you can afford it you can build more of them.

Or reword the light cav definition to include poorer armoured knights (if heavy means full-plate... because if heavy means decent chainmail, then <1000 for a France-sized kingdom is a joke). ;)

Well heavy cavalry is a pretty strong unit, and as such increasing its prevalence would make countries with knights a little better off compared to countries who dont have any.

Yeah, heavily armoured knights (whatever was heavy by the then-current standards) should cut like a hot knife in butter, like 1:100 ratios against poor peasant levies.
 
Last edited:

unmerged(133674)

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So, reading this fascinating thread, there seems to be a few things suggested, practically speaking, to improve warfare relating to HC:

1) The number of HC should be increased somewhat; not hugely, but enough to give HC a bit of a presence in most armies.

2) The combat abilities of HC should be buffed significantly, in order to represent their shock value.

3) Troop-boosting buildings should be a little less culturally deterministic; potentially it might be good for countries to go down different building "paths" emphasising one or two troop types over others.

Fair?
 

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This game is such a joke and it's so annoying the battles are not at all historically accurate. When I played total war, I took armies of THOUSANDS of heavily armored KNIGHTS to battle all the time, just as chronicled by the ancient historians of old. I didn't bother with feeble peasantry like this game forces you to. Kinda sucked how the people revolted all the time, since I only required the nobles to do all the fighting, but whatever. Also, my knights were actually trained to fight. They knew how to actually kill their enemy, not just swing their weapon in one or two motions and run away like in Paradox games. (/s)
 

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Well Rat I for one love the ToW series as well. The battles are epic on those, however when it comes down to it PI tries to make their games more historically correct in a way. I don't have a problem with the battles, as well armies really weren't made up of a professional soldiers back in those days. I mean you had your knights and nobles some of which were trained with the sword from day one, but the light infantry and archers and such usually just simple farmers and what not that would be pulled from their duties to go off and fight in some rich man's war.

So not gonna bash you for saying that about ToW battles, as honestly I still go back and play the hell out of them. But PI well they make the games more in depth with intrigue so its a bit of a give and take on it you know.

As far as knights though I have no idea. I never thought of heavy cavalry as knights though. As I always kind of felt a knight could be heavily armored infantry as well. Although I will admit I would enjoy any improvement PI makes with regards to the battle system as I rarely pay attention to it unless it notifies me someone died or its a huge pitched battle against two 30k+ death stacks.
 

Ratlegion

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I find them hard to go back to, myself, especially after EU3. I don't like the way that series is going either. Kinda embarrassing to recall all the hours I spent on that series, although playing this makes me feel just as bad about EU3.

I have always loved the Middle Ages, but when I played Rome TW, I loved it right away. Ultimately, Medieval II was the better game, but it had obvious laziness in the production to me. It didn't have the heart of Rome. When I got EU3, it was mainly because it was cheap. Like Rome TW, I had no interest at all in most of the featured era, but much of it was fantastic. With Crusader Kings II I feel I am finally home at last. My complaints a few, and my hours short. Complaining on the number of knights available is a waste of game time to me.
 

tnick0225

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lol I hear ya Rat :) I'll take PI's depth over the epic battle scenes any day even if it is just watching two figures swing at each other with their sticks lol
 
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I think the issue is with the culture specific buildings in Frankish / German lands.



If your ruler ever changes culture , they disappear. If you are not that culture , you can't make the building.



Also what do you guys think of the Holy orders? they are like 2500 heavy calv or something huge like that.
 

grumphie

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heavy cav might be a little underpresented, so they COULD use a slight buff(maybe put a small amount of them in the guard quarter chain and a bit more in the stable chain). it shouldnt be a too large though, as they are the strognest unit in the game
 

GAGA Extrem

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So, reading this fascinating thread, there seems to be a few things suggested, practically speaking, to improve warfare relating to HC:

1) The number of HC should be increased somewhat; not hugely, but enough to give HC a bit of a presence in most armies.

2) The combat abilities of HC should be buffed significantly, in order to represent their shock value.

3) Troop-boosting buildings should be a little less culturally deterministic; potentially it might be good for countries to go down different building "paths" emphasising one or two troop types over others.

Fair?
Working on that.

I re-wrote the building system so that each holding gets 4 "slots" for military buildings (1 free + 1 at CONSTRUCTION 1, 2 and 3). Once milita training grounds are upgraded to T2, the owner can decide if he wants an archery range or a barracks or a stable for that slot.
 

trias10

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Are the units given by each tier of a particular building cumulative or not?

I.e.

Squire lists gives 30 knights
Knight lists gives 35 knights

If you have knight lists, do you get 35 or (35+30)=65 knights?
 

knppel

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Hell, i just saw a 2000 men army beat an 8k mob at a river. The 2k of mine had 800 heavy cav left an lost 2 single men while killing off almost 800 enemies before theire full morale was scattered and they fled.

I think skilled Fighters leading their levy should add at least one HC. Nothing more embarrasing then rasing 1 levy somewhere, led by the local Count or even Duke, and then see he is a sole light infantrist with his 15 martial:happy:
One could tie this to Feudal Rulers only maybe, them giving one extra heavy cav per landed character present in the army
 

apg

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I think the issue is with the culture specific buildings in Frankish / German lands.



If your ruler ever changes culture , they disappear. If you are not that culture , you can't make the building.



Also what do you guys think of the Holy orders? they are like 2500 heavy calv or something huge like that.

in our upcoming mod myself and grallonsphere have addressed this problem by removing the cultural requirement of the buildings and only allowing them to be constructed in relevant provinces from where the troops where from historically, so if you conquer an english province you can recruit there longbowmen, if you conquer a frankish province you can recruit there heavy cavalry etc.
 

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. . . Bishop Bek of Durham, armed for a cause that was surely God's, commanded thirty-two bannered knights . . .

Bannerets is where the whole concept of the knight began. These were the leaders of the cavalry, so identified by their colors. In response to the Hunnic invasions of the 5th century the original Roman light cavalry was reorganized into so-called heavy formations. Then, as the centuries rolled-on and knight bannerets began to be paid more in land than gold their colors developed into a form of heraldry.

There are also cultural differences as to what constituted a knight. Armor and equipment varied from place to place, not to mention different styles developed over time (pointy shoes, etc). So, it's hard to make any kind of generalization.

My thoughts as to the game is that it's never going to be a realistic re-creation of medieval warfare, but I understand what people want --and not necessarily good historical recreation. Some want to send a huge force of armored knights off to fight Saladin's hords just to see what happens. Great.

From my perspective the term "light cavalry" and "heavy cavalry" is a misnomer. Western army's had mixed cavalary. Without getting into details, some were heavily armored, others lightly armored, etc. A knight could be heavily armored, but not necessarily. Just the fact these guys rode into battle on a horse made them special because horses were an expensive commodity on the the battlefield, doubly-so on foreign campaigns (moving horse cavalry by ship!). Castles had stables for a reason--these weren't farm animals. There are war horses and heavy war horses, the latter bred over time to carry fully armored kights (today we know them as draft horses). So, just like their mounted counterpart, horses were of mixed types as well. Now, eastern army's had true light cavalry with completely different fighting styles (ie. Manzikert).

So, to sum up, I disagree with the premise that knights are too rare in this game. Second, I agree with the premise that increasing numbers of so-called heavy cavalry is unrealistic. However, if one considers total numbers of mixed cavalry already in the game, that answers the question. To achieve larger numbers of mounted formations one simply constructs more stables in lieu of guard houses, militia training, etc. That's what I do.

Professional historian, closed forum. Do not attempt.
 

Caranorn

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Finally got through reading the entire thread. Some good sources provided for various points, lots of informed posters in favour of improvemnts to the system as seen in the game...

Some things to consider:

A king could not always mobilise all his knights (another poster already mntionned this). Therefore it is often wrong to look at royal armies to determine the percentage of cavalry to infantry. For instance I'd tend to go looking at forces engaged during the baronial wars to compare with the later scottish (Fallkirk) and/or welsh campaigns or the HYW. While England was probably always relatively weak in cavalry (poor country? weak nobility? legal status of the yeomen?), even english armies varried greatly over time. If we had three forces to compare from the exact same social background in England in 1200, 1300 and 1400 we would probably find an ever decreasing proportion of heavy cavalry compared to foot troops. English kings also greatly relied on both french knights (Normandy, Gascogne, Flanders) under feudal contract and knights from further away who served as mercenaries (that is entire feudal contingents of heavy cavalry hired in the France, Lotharingia and Germany) to suplement their own relatively sparce (or unreliable) forces. But again that need not mean that there were so few heavy cavalry in England, only that the king could not raise them...

But that raises another question. Are the armies of English kings at all representative of other armies. Shouldn't numbers determined for english kings only be applied to english kings in game? Shouldn't we look for info on other forces as well?

Some have already mentionned Courtray. One thing to note concerning that battle is that the Flemish forces were very much understrength when it comes to cavalry in that campaign due to events in the previous years (much of the nobility and knighthood was imprisonned, on the french side and/or otherwise not involved in that year's fighting). Beyond that it was a decision by the flemish forces (by the way calling one side flemish and the other french in that campaign can again lead to confusion, there were true flemmings on both sides in that battle, but there were also a number of non flemings on the so called flemish side, frenchmen other than flemings on both sides etc., even flemish cities on both sides) to dismount their small cavalry contingent and spread it out across the battle field. Anyhow, Courtray shows what a french local levy could look like (this was not a true Ost, most of the french were from Flanders, Artois and other north-eastern counties). Crecy shows what a full royal Ost could look like (including mercenary infantry and local foot levies). But other battles might also be interesting to look at (I'm brainstorming here, don't know the numbers in many cases), maybe Bouvines (would also show royal hosts for Germany as well as a small glimpse at an english contingent iirc). Preferably look at armies before the bloodshed and more importantly first doctrinal confusion (dismount knights to advance on foot through mud against longbowmen is not the solution to the problem, just creates a new problem) and reduced numbers due to bleeding white the french knighthood (not to meantion the civil war like situation). A number of German battles could also be looked at. Personally I've been very interested in the battle of Worringen where two feudal contingents went at each other with some 5000 cavalry and a similar ammount of infantry present. That battle also demostrates what astonishingly large contingents some areas could field (the count of Luxembourg (holdings smaller than what is portrayed as the county in CK-II) alone fielded almost a 1000 cavalry (that number included Luxembourg, Arlon, Laroche, vassals and allies from neighbouring regions as well as something between 1/3 and 1/2 of the knighthood of Limbourg), one third of which can be assumed (Lehnarts) to be knights, the rest squires and sergeants (all in armour though often with lesser horses (sorry, draft horses are not directly descended from knight's horses, the confusion might arise from the fact that for instance a breed like the Ardennes horse is today a heavy draught horse, was a horse artillery horse during Napoleon's wars, a heavy cavalry horse a century or two earlier, yet if you look at the descriptions and pictures of this breed during those different periods you will find that the breed has greatly changed, the modern day Ardennes draft horse being descended only from the fattest (yes) most letargic and energy inneficient studs and mares, while most of the more energetic studs and mares were eventually culled out (not to mention loss of the fittest studs in 1812 and 1940-45))). At the same battle the city of Cologne (also in a civil war of it's own as many of the local knights and patricians had been turned out of the city a few years earlier) could field only 50 cavalry but several hundred infantry. The counties of Berg and Mark combined could not even reach 500 cavalry while the duke of Brabant probably had slightly more than a thousand (Lehnarts has done some great work in his doctoral thesis about the battle, building up on Verbruggen's research). Another source worth looking at might be Henry VII (HRE) of Luxembourg's Romzug (corronation voyage/campaign to Rome), or any other Kings of Germans during their Romzug, though it should be remembered that even that body of cavalry would have been only a fragment of what could have been raised locally under ideal conditions. German and french (Anjou) campaigns in Italy including Sicily might be interesting as well...

Anyhow, I believe a thorough study would show four things: 1) proportion of cavalry to infantry and heavy to mdium to light cavalry varries in time due to various factors, 2) proportion of cavalry to infantry varries regionally, in part due to doctrine and laws, 3) proportion of cavalry and infantry varries depending on who made the call to arms, how well respected/feared such caller is, how rich, how much promise of reward etc., 4) proportion of cavalry to infantry varries depending on the intent of the current campaign, that is whether the intent is to seek battle, to lay siege, to raid etc. Other factors that should not be forgotten is attrition during a campaign, losses incured in previous campaigns, contingents tied up in auxiliary theaters (for instance a force laying siege, or relieving a siege while the main force marches to seek battle)...

In any case I'm 100% certain that numbers of heavy cavalry as seen in CK-II now are far bellow the historical norm in France, Germany, England, Italy, Spain, Bohemia, Poland and a number of other regions. The oddest is probably how in game heavy cavalry gets commoner (never common) in game, yet the reverse was the fact historically (Lehnarts and iirc also Verbruggen and some other scholars demonstrate how most cavalry in the early 13th century was knights with a small number of squires in arms and sergeants, while by the close of that century the reverse was the case)...