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Amoral

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Well, the 7% figure I gave was for France, a country which is intended to have a relatively large proportion of knights in its armies. An in-game English army of 1337 has 0.86% HC, way less than what even your example would indicate.

And I'd really like to see the research behind that 87,500 figure you give for entire army size. Because that'd be a humongous army by medieval standards, let alone for a relatively poor and sparsely populated country like England.

Richard's knights at Falkirk were mostly french.

I'd be equally interested to see some research from you. Your argument seems to be based what feels right to you, and a fragment of a wikipedia article.

Here is what I used
http://www.clanwallace.org/clanhis3.html
"British Battles: On land and Sea" by James Grant
 

Jaol

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It seems that everyone's examples have a higher % of knights than the game currently does:

Amoral's example was 4% HC
Assuming 1/4 of the cavalry in Veldmaarschalk's examples would be HC in game terms, his figures are about 4 and 2.5%

A vanilla army has less than 1% HC.
 

Veldmaarschalk

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Richard's knights at Falkirk were mostly french.

I'd be equally interested to see some research from you. Your argument seems to be based what feels right to you, and a fragment of a wikipedia article.

Here is what I used
http://www.clanwallace.org/clanhis3.html
"British Battles: On land and Sea" by James Grant

That is a source from 1897, a lot new information has been found after that.
 

Amoral

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That is a source from 1897, a lot new information has been found after that.

[Citation needeed]

New information like what? No new writings have come to light. No one invented time travel. Edward hasn't risen as a Zombie-king (yet, fingers crossed). New books have been written, but they just rehash the same 7 or 8 contemporary sources.
 

Isaios

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[Citation needeed]

New information like what? No new writings have come to light. No one invented time travel. Edward hasn't risen as a Zombie-king (yet, fingers crossed). New books have been written, but they just rehash the same 7 or 8 contemporary sources.

No, there's been quite a lot of new archeological evidence found. And several contemporary sources (Fechtbücher, diaries and biographies) that seem to have been neglected in the past have been recieving atention "lately".
 

KonradRichtmark

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Richard's knights at Falkirk were mostly french.

I'd be equally interested to see some research from you. Your argument seems to be based what feels right to you, and a fragment of a wikipedia article.

Here is what I used
http://www.clanwallace.org/clanhis3.html
"British Battles: On land and Sea" by James Grant

Clan Wallace. The website of what is essentially a William Wallace fan-club. I'd take Wikipedia over that. But no, I didn't say I'm right because my source is better. I said that your numbers feel inherently implausible because, well, 87.500 is just massive by Medieval standards.
 

TheStrangerOrg

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it seems to me that the amount of knights is too low early in the game, if you start in 1337 it seems right. yet the impact of the heavy cav is severely limited in this game because you cannot use them properly (group all your knights on both flanks and let them ride down the flank and enveloping the army. subsequently because this is not possible the function of pikemen is unnecesary and the lack of pikemen (which is perhaps even bigger than the lack of heavy cav) goes by unnoticed.
 

Isaios

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Clan Wallace. The website of what is essentially a William Wallace fan-club. I'd take Wikipedia over that. But no, I didn't say I'm right because my source is better. I said that your numbers feel inherently implausible because, well, 87.500 is just massive by Medieval standards.

A couple of small comparisons; an estimated 60.000 people set out on the First Crusade, and the first Doukas Basileus disbanded the Armenian militia, said to have been 50.000 (not a standing army though).

I wouldn't be all that surprised to learn that a centralised, relatively prosperous nation like medieval England could marshall such a force, though I have no backing data.
 

Veldmaarschalk

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[Citation needeed]

New information like what? No new writings have come to light. No one invented time travel. Edward hasn't risen as a Zombie-king (yet, fingers crossed). New books have been written, but they just rehash the same 7 or 8 contemporary sources.


(Border Fury, England and Scotland at War 1296-1568 by John Sadler), there were 3,000 cavalry, 10,900 Welsh foot and 14,800 English foot at Roxburgh in June 1298. Those 3,000 wouldn't have all been knights of course.

Lost Kingdoms, Celtic Scotland and the Middle Ages, by John L. Roberts, talks about 2,000 and 10,000 at the battle of Falkirk

The great and terrible king, Edward I and the forging of Britain, by Marc Morris mentions 3,000 cavalry and about 28,000 foot (so about the same as John Sadler.

The numbers you are mentioning, are the numbers that Edward ordered to assemble and older (19th century) historians often took those numbers to be the actual numbers on the battlefield.
 

Isaios

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(Border Fury, England and Scotland at War 1296-1568 by John Sadler), there were 3,000 cavalry, 10,900 Welsh foot and 14,800 English foot at Roxburgh in June 1298. Those 3,000 wouldn't have all been knights of course.

Lost Kingdoms, Celtic Scotland and the Middle Ages, by John L. Roberts, talks about 2,000 and 10,000 at the battle of Falkirk

The great and terrible king, Edward I and the forging of Britain, by Marc Morris mentions 3,000 cavalry and about 28,000 foot (so about the same as John Sadler.

The numbers you are mentioning, are the numbers that Edward ordered to assemble and older (19th century) historians often took those numbers to be the actual numbers on the battlefield.

What are their sources? If Morris and Sadler are close in conclusions, but have separate primary sources, that should lend their position some significant weight.
 
Last edited:

steveuk666

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The Dupuy brothers estimate the following forces at Falkirk in 1298;

English;

7,000 heavy cavalry
3,000 light cavalry
15,000 infantry

Scottish;

1,000 heavy cavalry
2,500 light cavalry
25,000 infantry

This was also the first significant use of the English longbow which was used to great effect against the Scottish pikemen (schiltrouns)

If this thread teaches us anything, it must be that forces available at the time vary greatly between different historians. One thing is certain...we will never know for sure the exact numbers.
 
Last edited:

Isaios

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If this thread teaches us anything, it must be that forces available at the time vary greatly between different historians. One thing is sure...we will never know.

That depends entirely on how you define knowledge. It's not a 1/0 situation. Rather a scale of more or less certain knowledge. Some knowledge we know with higher certainty (getting hit in the crotch will hurt) than other things we know (religion of the Proto-Indo-European culture).
 

KonradRichtmark

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A couple of small comparisons; an estimated 60.000 people set out on the First Crusade, and the first Doukas Basileus disbanded the Armenian militia, said to have been 50.000 (not a standing army though).

I wouldn't be all that surprised to learn that a centralised, relatively prosperous nation like medieval England could marshall such a force, though I have no backing data.

Well, the First Crusade was a multinational force really. England may have been relatively centralised, but had a fairly low population in absolute terms (4 million compared with 14 for France or 20 for the HRE). I'm mostly comparing with the forces the English used in the Hundred Years War, where I don't know of any instance when they would have assembled more than 20.000 men, and usually (as in, in most significant battles of the war) significantly less.

Maybe I shouldn't have said "massive", but rather in the range of something it'd take a very large, rich and highly populated realm to marshal. The only Medieval force larger than that I've ever read about would be the claimed 100.000 strong contingent of Barbarossa for the Third Crusade, and that's afaik a primary source figure of which I have no idea of how verified it is, and in any case it's for a realm with many times the population of England.
 
Last edited:

Endre Fodstad

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I'm currently reading a Ph.D. thesis (Siege Warfare in the Successor States: Byzantium, the West, and Islam, 400-800 A.D by Leif Inge Ree Petersen, 2011 - really thorough) that calculates that Charlemagne could put some 145,000 soldiers, most of them full-time professionals, in the field at his height of power. This is based on the most recent research, and the subdivisions include a personal royal force of some 8-10000 men, for the comes conservatively around 37500 men, on top of which they could bring free, propertied arms-bearing population and magnates not holding public office (very prominent in legislation and descriptions) of about the same size, and (again conservatively) 60,000 church troops (bishops and monastries). The cavalry contigent in these forces would vary greatly, but Petersen cites a work by Gillmorr from 2002 that calculates that the Carolingian royal lands seems to have produced around 4500 horses for military purposes every year - enough to supply, conservatively, 10,000 cavalrymen. It is unlikely that the entire royal force was cavalry, though. When it comes to the forces of the comes and ecclesiastical lands, the data are less spesific, but polyptyques such as the Brevium Exempla and the Wissembourg monastry's own records from the same period illustrate that the bishops and monastries were able to provide cavalry horses to a lot of their men as well. Spesific percentages are, of course, difficult, as always, but such insights make it easier to understand how the Otto I, inheritor of Charlemagne's system, was able to put very large all-cavalry armies in the field at Lechfeld a century later.

Prestwich, in his "Armies and Warfare in the Middle Ages: the English experience" from 1996 estimates that Edward I kept around 100,000 men in the field at the height of his war operations in the scottish wars of the early 14th century. His stresses the low number of cavalry in these campaigns; the majority of Edward's forces were always infantry, but percentages are, again, not presented.

The gist of this, I think, is that one should not be too surprised when finding that recent scholarship turns up the numbers of troops in medieval armies compared to older estimates. Petersen - a Byzantinist originally, his advisor was one of scandinavias premier philologists of byzantine greek (Staffan Wahlgren) - writes that the more he dug into the original latin and greek sources the more surprised he was at how the "barbarian" western germanic kingdoms manage to achieve parity in skill, organization and numbers of soldiers (compared to population) with the perceived better organized byzantines. Indeed, he cites complaints from the Istrian region (conquered by Charlemagne from the byzantines in 804) that the Carolingian administration is far more capable of squeezing them for troops, engineers and military logistical materials from them than their previous overlords. This being a Ph.D. he of course points out the polemical nature of the source, but points out that when it came to providing the logistical basis for the business of war, similar demands on the populace can be traced in Carolingian administrative documentation elsewhere and that it simply does not do to be dogmatic and keep to older models of minimalist interpretations about the capabilities of early (and, although he does not discuss it, high) medieval societies in the field of warfare, in face of careful examining and crossreferencing of the extant evidence.
 

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Could he hypothethically call up 145k men, or could he actually take these man on campaign?

While I am a person who hates the "dark ages were bad, bad,bad" interpretation, I have a great difficulty everliving he could actually take an army of 145k (inflated to ~170k with camp followers, and this is a low number) on even a short summer campaign, simply because these people have to be fed and housed. The logistics for such army movements are simply not there, Imho.

Also, is this number the hypothetical campaign army number, or the number of people sworn to armed service? How much of these 145k would he have to bleed away on garrison duties and such?


Sorry for the necro and the derail, but you are one of the few posters who actually knows his medieval period history, and I'd like to converse.
 

FrozenWall

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Could he hypothethically call up 145k men, or could he actually take these man on campaign?

Garrisons, reserves and logistics. Garrisons were not merely people set to defend a fort, they were also the police force. If America wanted to invade Iran could they ship over all their policemen to reinforce Afghanistan? Not really, unless they wanted their country to turn into anarchy in their absence.

Reserves, there are always some barbarians on the edges of Europe waiting for you to take your trained men and cart them of somewhere far away. You need an army at home to dissuade them, and act as a plan b if you get defeated.

Logistics, you can only feed so many for so long on foraging and plunder, and you can only send so much supplies on horse carts from home. In addition manoeuvring a too large host on unkempt muddy roads is its own nightmare. And then you have the whole peasants want to go home to the harvest thing.

So no, no king was ever able to field every man he had under his command. Except possibly for a very brief time in a very specific central area to repel some invader. Charlemagnes empire however was far too large to levy the entire army and bring it any one point or front.
 

guitarspider

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Well, I don't think anyone denies that garrison forces should have few or no knights. A heavy cavalryman is hardly very useful for castle defence. Most sources I've read have given ratios of about 10% knights for a "typical" Western European high medieval field army.

Knights are in garrisons mostly because they're the military experts you need and want if it comes to blows and because of their social station and the leadership role it brings. Mounted or not, it really doesn't matter, it's not like the cavalryman is glued to his horse. Imho a reasonable abstraction for a game that doesn't care at all about combat.

How disastrously expensive and rare heavy cavalry was can be seen by the fact that cities frequently had to pay the upkeep of heavy cavalrymen even during peaceful times, just to have them available during war. Those cities often went bankrupt during the later middle ages, because they could no longer afford the costs of war and feuds (and a big part of that was heavy infantry), went into debt, and never recovered. One prominent example is Cologne.
 

unmerged(133356)

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The chivalry thing came much later than knights. Originally, knights emerged as mounted warfare became dominant in Western European Warfare. The problem of expense was dealt with precisely by giving land to a knight so that he could afford a few horses, armour and weapons. In return, the knight was expected to grant his lord military service. So it makes complete sense for a barony (baron, the level above knights) to have knights as part of its levy. It also served the purpose that learning to fight on horseback requires an awful lot of training, so having a warrior class born into it helped. I suppose this point hasn't been in huge contention, it is agreed generally that knights as mounted warriors fought in armies. The real issue it seems is whether knights should be considered HC or, as Paradox has modeled them, LC.

Compared to the cavalry fielded elsewhere, even early European knights should be considered HC. It wasn't just their armour but their weapons, longswords, designed for use by a mounted soldier in close combat (not a brilliant skirmish weapon) and their mounts, which were heavy horses designed to be a weapon in their own right (there is a good reason riot police often use horses). Their tactic was shock. Often, early knights would soften the enemy first with javelins, but they were designed to be the main force of battle. Compared to Arab cavalry, which at this period was still a light, skirmishing force, Western European cavalry should definitely be considered HC; their equipment, training and tactics were completely different.

Indeed, I was under the impression that the concept of chivalry and the high moral standards of the knight were largely retroactively applied to the position of minor landed noble fighting as heavy cavalry in the period when such warrior were already becoming obsolete -- somewhat in the way that the courtly, refined, ultra-codified samurai ideals flourished more in the era of relative peace when a professional warrior class had little fighting to do.
 

Caranorn

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Sorry if this has been said, I only read first couple of posts. Thought I would just clear a few things up as I teach history at a high level.

* Knight is the term for a noble and did not really mean that this man would fight in full plate and horse back. Full plate armour was stupidly expensive ( Imagine in todays terms kitting your best guys out in something similar to Batman's outfit in regard to protection. Knight was more the term for a man of noble birth or who had aquired this title through deeds to a kingdom. He would have generally fought on horse but would ; for game purposes, be considered Light Cavalry. Your average Count or even Duke could not field any heavy cavalry due to the insane cost of not only arming but also training these men ( riding a horse at pace in something as heavy as full plate AND timing your attacks on an enemy takes years of training which costs money.)

* 1066 , some could argue William won this due to his "heavy cavalry" in history and time specific examples and purposes William's "knights" were in game terms "light cavelry" as they wore leather over layed with mail and used lances (spears)

* The only "TRUE" heavy cavalry of the period would have been Teutonic or Crusader Knights. The idea of men in full plate bearing down on an enemy with leveled lances (in abundance at least) is a Hollywood invention.

In regards to Heavy Cavalry in this game, other than a few forgivables, Paradox generally does its homework + some. Id suggest that they more or less have the ratio of heavy cav spot on.
You have got to remember, the Crusader state knights , especially Templars were feared and respected across Europe because they pretty much were the one major Heavy Cav regiment in existence at the time. Thats where they forged thier reputation and pretty much where we get the idea of heavy cavalry.

Hope this clears some things up

Sorry but this is so annoying and incredible that I have to reply to this post before completely reading through this topic...

Please provide your credentials. You say you teach history at a high level? What do you mean by that? From what you have written I have to assume you at best studied general or modern history, certainly not medieval history or even better medieval history focused on military events...

Lets get some things straight concerning this topic.

1) A knight is not necessarily noble (as a previous poster already mentionned, there are such things as ministeriali who were serf knights (and this system is not unique to in the HRE, there are clear examples in Flanders for instance also similar systems in France). Note also that not all noblemen are knights in the strict terms. Certainly early in the medieval period knights and nobility tended to be entirely separate. Later on knighthood became ever more codified and controlled meaning that by the end of the middle ages every knight was indeed also of noble birth (but not every nobleman in arms a knight)...

2) The technical innovations that gradually lead to what we today understand as knights in battle were improved stirrups (there are indications that as far back as the Celts a form of stirup (single stirup) existed in Europe, but this was insufficient to perform true shock tactics) and a new saddle. These two technical innovations allowed a new doctrine of cavalry tactics away from skirmish and towards shock. The Bayeux Tapestry shows a number of armoured cavalry men (the german term Panzerreiter might be better in this discussion than knight as many men could be trained, equipped and expected to fight like knights without being actually knights) riding with couched lance (while some scenes still portray light cavalry with spears held in fencing/throwing position). For a while after this type of cavalry was introduced to Europe (again, stirup, saddle and couched lance) training and equipment greatly improved making heavy cavalry the determinant factor on the battle field. Some of those improvements were training in single- as well as formation combat (tournaments, the name even stems from the practice of chargeing and turning around to reform before the next charge), training horses as dextriers (recent scholars, that is actual professionals, like Lehnarts are convinced that the term destrier is not derived from the horse being led by a squire with the right hand, but instead describes either a natural- or trained-right_hand_galoper (sorry I'm not too familiar with english language riding terminology, this is a horse that easier bends to the right (aka a left hander), any rider will know that most horses are naturally right handed (left bent) and this would be very difficult to train away (explaining the cost of true destriers), a right_hand_galoper would greatly increase the effectiveness of couched lance tactics as the entire horse's body is bent to the right and therefore the lance can easily be crossed over the horse's neck once the horse is brought to the canter/galop (final phase of the charge)) etc. By the way, a knight's (or other heavy cavalryman's) horse of the 12th, 13th or 14th century was a relatively light horse compared to modern breeds, that is archeological finds have demonstrated that horses in general during the medieval period rarely exceeded 16 hands and their built was not robust (yes Hollywood invented som things, such inventions are heavy armour (I'm a re-enactor in addition to having studied history, believe m I'd know if armour were really heavy to wear or greatly inhibitting movement) or heavy horses). Its most important trait was not strength but flexibility. Anyhow there were a number of other reasons that eventually reduced first the number of heavy cavalrymen and then their importance...

3) Why would Templar knights in particular be more heavily equipped than other knights of their time? The Templars are in fact renowned for using antiquated armour and to some degree military doctrine. Otherwise they were issued from the exact same classes of people as other knights and or heavy cavalrymen (to note, many Templar sergeants (servientes) in arms were in fact also trained as heavy cavalry (the major exception being Turcopoles), probably even more strict selection by birth. Some of the advantages Templars might have had early on were more actual experience of combat (particularly against the light cavalry of the Turks), relatively high discipline (fight as long as the banner is raised, if the banner falls raise a new banner if possible, otherwise rally to the Knights of the Hospital (again sorry for the english, Hospitalitter in german). One of their disadvantage during the middle to late period of their existance would have been prohibition from participating in tournaments (then again by the 14th century when the Templars were disbanded, tournaments had become far removed from realistic battle practice)...

4) Why would the chainmail (and no, modern research makes the old notion of leather gambesons/aketons be it as stand alone armour or worn under mail at Hastings unlikely, yes a few rare examples might have existed, so rare that they were specially noticed in Norse Sagas, fabric gear (most likely layers of linen, outer layers of linen with a cotton fleece (not sure it's the correct english term, German "Filz" or more exacly "verfilzt" or "gefilzt") were probably only introduced during the Crusades and are the origin of the term aketon (derivate from Arab)) of the Hastings period be considered light armour? It is the heaviest (the word heavy can lead to much confusing when talking about armour, chainmail is not so heavy or inflexible as one might think, once worn on the shoulder and over the belt (very important as mny don't realise the role the belt plays in wearing chain armour) weight is well distributed and correctly manufactured mail will still permit good movement of the wearer (badly assembled rings can do the exact opposite, but no one at the time would have made that error) available at the time. It was only in the the late 13th century that pieces of plate armour started to appear (note that even plate can be easily worn and remain flexible and should not be confused with Hollywood heavy armour). But even then plate or chain armour would not be the determining factor to differentiate between heavy and light cavalry...

5) So what defines heavy and light cavalry from a military point of view? Heavy cavalry is the type that executes predominantly (not exclusively) shock combat, while light cavalry is trained and equipped for skirmish and/or missile combat. That is a heavy cavalryman could be wearing no armour at all if he is still trained and expected to fight in close quarters (see greek cavalry of antiquity where riders often only wore helmets and shields as armour). A light cavalryman on the other hand could be wearing heavy (how I hate that word in this context, again it's not physically heavy) armour, yet not be trained to charge the enemy (best example Turkic cavalry during the crusades who often wore chainmail of similar, sometimes even better, quality to Crusader cavalry, yet were not trained and therefore inneficient in shock combat. A good example someone else mentionned would be 19th century cuirassiers whom no one would call light cavalry, yet were armoured and trained for shock (which at times involved fire arms, though no longer I believe in the 19th)...

Sorry but no time to continue this (very late) reply. but the very notion that Templar cavalry was feared in Europe is silly. Respected to a certain degree definitelly, but also at times laughing stock of other knights (even more so of other orders like the Teutonics)...

Anyhow, I will try to write up a more organised viewpoint on these issues, whenever possible with numbers and sources...

P.S.: As I ask for credentials I will give mine. I studied history for 2 years (not much at all, but enough to learn how to read sources critically), none of that studying involved medieval or military history. Since then I've worked in jobs unrelated to the field of history or military matters. But I kept on reading about all periods of history with a particular (but by no means single) focus on military matters. CK-I motivated me for the first time to delve into medieval history as well as connected topics (heraldry). I have since become somewhat of an expert for local medieval history (and by that I don't mean reading general history books, I mean going through the source documents as well as keeping up to date on local research). I have written a few articles on local topics (such as the dating of the town I currently inhabit, which I believe to have narrowed down to a time frame of maybe ten years, incidentally almost twenty years later than some official histories would have it and 50 years earlier than some others). I have also moved into medieval re-enactment (of the A type as Germans would say, that is the ones looking for authenticity, as far as that can be achieved with unfortunatelly limited resources) and going ever further towards experimental archeology. For some time now I've been doing research on various history/wargame topics, this last year as one of the lead designers for a project. In short I know my stuff, though I continue to learn more every day. But there is one thing I cannot stand, that is someone else stating to belong to accademia (which might be true or not, but certainly not a recent scholar of continental European medieval military history) and then make statements wildly contradictory of expert opinions...