Knight of the Long Knives

[Klausewitz]

Night of the Long Knives

Mid-1934 Hitler and Göring killed off Röhm and most of the SA leaders.
They did that in large part to apease the commanders of the Wehrmacht who feared that the SA, which considered itself the 'Army of the Movement', would take over the tasks of the still Versailles-disabled Army, a move very much remniscent to the Red Revolution of 1918-19 for the officers.
In reality Hitler quashed this because he rather wanted to have a professional Army trained by professional officers than a real People's Army under the command of the SA.
We have the possibilty to change history.
How would it look if he instead choose the SA as the nucleus of the future Army and put the whole of the Reichswehr under Röhms command?
I would start with the slider going all the way to drafted army and loosing a whole lot of officers while gaining a HUGE number of Infantry, Mountain and Militia units (the SA is considered to have had 3 million members in 1934, taking only half of that would still render 50 (30,000 man division) to 150 (10,000 man division) instantly or almost instantly at very low IC costs.
I think it should also lead to abonding the Movement Warfare path and go to a more manpower, infantry intensive on.
Comments?

 

[makif130289]

Mid-1934 Hitler and Göring killed off Röhm and most of the SA leaders.
They did that in large part to apease the commanders of the Wehrmacht who feared that the SA, which considered itself the 'Army of the Movement', would take over the tasks of the still Versailles-disabled Army, a move very much remniscent to the Red Revolution of 1918-19 for the officers.
In reality Hitler quashed this because he rather wanted to have a professional Army trained by professional officers than a real People's Army under the command of the SA.
We have the possibilty to change history.
How would it look if he instead choose the SA as the nucleus of the future Army and put the whole of the Reichswehr under Röhms command?
I would start with the slider going all the way to drafted army and loosing a whole lot of officers while gaining a HUGE number of Infantry, Mountain and Militia units (the SA is considered to have had 3 million members in 1934, taking only half of that would still render 50 (30,000 man division) to 150 (10,000 man division) instantly or almost instantly at very low IC costs.
I think it should also lead to abonding the Movement Warfare path and go to a more manpower, infantry intensive on.
Comments?

I wonder that why didn't devs put Night of the Long Knives event in the game. There are hundreds of events in the game which are much less important.

 

[Hollandia]

Wouldn't that make Röhm kill Hitler?

 

[Klausewitz]

Wouldn't that make Röhm kill Hitler?

Nope. It would just be Hitler refraining from eradicating the whole 'general staff' of the SA under false claims of a Putsch.
I suppose you could even make it Röhm finding out and somehow sparking a civil war, but that would be pretty low in the stack off plausible alternatives.

 

[makif130289]

Wouldn't that make Röhm kill Hitler?

it could be like "Great Purge" event of Soviet Union.

 

[Klausewitz]

it could be like "Great Purge" event of Soviet Union.

Not really.
Some officers would have stayed on, and the effectiveness would not have been as dramatically impacted since you still had a lot of ex-soldeirs in the SA, but it would not have been an army for a mechnaized blitzkrieg.

 

[Turul]

I think it is against the whole Paradox concept of ignoring all cruel things like concentration camps, genocides etc. But I don't know why the Nanjing massacre is included...?

 

[JRHINDO]

I think it is against the whole Paradox concept of ignoring all cruel things like concentration camps, genocides etc. But I don't know why the Nanjing massacre is included...?

Because who cares about purged russians and massacred chinese? The killed jews are not to be forgoten though.

Edit: Yes its sarcasm

 

[makif130289]

I think it is against the whole Paradox concept of ignoring all cruel things like concentration camps, genocides etc. But I don't know why the Nanjing massacre is included...?

There is an event related to Guernica bombing in IC. So, the problem is not so called Paradox concept.

 

[Klausewitz]

I think it is against the whole Paradox concept of ignoring all cruel things like concentration camps, genocides etc. But I don't know why the Nanjing massacre is included...?

Not really a point here.
It is neither genocide nor holocaust. It is in-faction warfare.
But i think it is also because the consequences are pretty far reaching.
With this the whole bit moves a bit to the left (since the SA consistutes the proletarian/workers wing of the party), officer, techteam and minister selection would be impacted. As would be German warfare techniques. Numerous events would be obsolete (for example anything related to the purging of army command, like forcing some generals into retirement) additional ones would be required, like power grabs by now superfluous generals and their divisions, etc.

 

[sam73]

Nope. It would just be Hitler refraining from eradicating the whole 'general staff' of the SA under false claims of a Putsch.
I suppose you could even make it Röhm finding out and somehow sparking a civil war, but that would be pretty low in the stack off plausible alternatives.

Hindenburg and Blomberg threaten Hitler with declaring Martial Law and calling for a new Chancellor, if he did not get rid of Rohm and those parts of his party that still supported the second word in nazional-socialism. IIRC, Von Papen went as far as calling for a press conference where he asked, whether they have supported an anti-marxist revolution, only to end up with marxists in charge of the State.

Therefore, it the player was to choose not to kill Rhom, it is reasonable that there should be some chance of Hitler being expelled and some sort of confrontation between the nazionalsocialist and the conservatives.

 

[piratefish]

None of this is anywhere near as important as "Conner Bonnet" dam in Peru.

 

[Klausewitz]

Therefore, it the player was to choose not to kill Rhom, it is reasonable that there should be some chance of Hitler being expelled and some sort of confrontation between the nazionalsocialist and the conservatives.

Looking at the state of the state(pardon the pun) at that moment, it is questionable whether there would have been much they could have done...
But well, why not an event with a 5% chance of an armed civil war between the newly formed SA-Divisions, some defected Reichswehr divs and the rest of the Reichswehr?
And i agree. Nowhere as important as the 'never comes up again and has no bearing on anything'-events like Conner Bonnet or the Afghanistan schtick.

 

[Klausewitz]

Lets see what it would need:
If used normally, e.g. as history did, some dissent (the Nazis used to do house cleaning. SA, some old enemies, some catholics who 'commited suicide',etc.) and nothing more (the sliders already go so far into authoritarian and right by 'Taking control after the Reichstagbrand, that they do not need further adjustment).
If used alternatively:
The event were Hitler grants more power to the employers. With the left part of the Movement still intact that would hardly be feasible.
The whole movement would stay in Fascist territory, the Left-Right slider at 5 or 6(i do not know when exactly it passes into 'Left-wing radical' territory).


This should be followed by another event:
Formation of the Popular Army
IF accepted:
Röhm would get a much more visible Position in the governement (maybe General Staff position were he would most likely give infantry boni).
Massive influx of some Infantry (10?), a HQ and lots of Militia(35?) units (maybe upgrade to other units for those via events).
Change to another doctrine tree (The Revisionist/Foreign influence path and a path other than Mobile Warfare, preplanned attack maybe?)
Fritsch and Beck events are nullified.
Treaty of Versailles abrogated would also most likely play out different.
Chance of an uprising by the army (the 10+ 4star divisions and the HQ with chances of defection by some of those) of maybe 5%.

IF denied
Nothing happens.

 

[macscarfe]

From what i have been reading about the SA and Rohm I would suggest the following as well, a large increase to dissent IF accepted as well, the SA were very unpopular with just about everyone except with unemployed WW1 vets.

 

[Klausewitz]

From what i have been reading about the SA and Rohm I would suggest the following as well, a large increase to dissent IF accepted as well, the SA were very unpopular with just about everyone except with unemployed WW1 vets.

But not more than forbidding every party.
About 4 Dissent maybe?

 

[claudefrog]

i think its a great idea to have such an event about the night of the long knives. it does not compare to paradox idea about to gas chambers nazi stuff etc... paradox have those banned due to germany its illegal to have nazi things. the night of the long knives is a different issue. i guess the paradox ban would be for an event like cyrstalnight or whatever it was called when the jews businesses were destroyed in 1938 (or am i mistaken and is it actually in the game??) would probably not be allowed in due to it was a crime against the jews which is seen as a nazi thing and therefor banned in the game... would be a cool event though with a minus effect on ic and slider to closed society or open slider mover and a fair amount of dissent etc. But can see why it would not be allowed due to the above points.