I figured I'd settle this controversial thread with an equally controversial statement. I've heard the vicious rumours levied against me and I am not, I repeat, am not lacking any land. Indeed; I have huge tracts of land, so please just let these rumours simmer down and die!
The Great
Lol.
benkern said:
So it should be. People didn't just give up the title of King, because some upstart who actually owns the land claims the title! I liked the usurp mechanic, I think it worked well.
Yes, what you say works quite well if the other ruler is, i.e. King of Léon and duke of Brabant. The Duke of Brabant will still consider himself (and be considered in game terms) to be the rightful King of Léon even once he lost all lands. That's not 100% historical, but the opposite will be a-historical too. In terms of gameplay, in this case, the "old" system will be an acceptable approximation.
But another case is possible : I just defeated the King of Wales and now I have my control all over Wales, but the old man kept control of a far away county in the Holy Land, that he had conquered during the crusade.
Let's say that he flees with his court and (if he manages to survive to the travel which wasn't that obvious for a group of shattered runaways ; and to prevent the good old lieutenant in that far far away county from taking advantage of the situation and declaring his independence; and to keep rebellious demoralized troops at his order) reaches safe and sound the Holy Land.
Even if he continued to claim his divine right to the throne of Wales (and I don't have any doubt that he would), I don't think that anyone in Wales or in Europe would care. That is, unless he's not from a really ancient dynasty of rulers of that country (like the Palaiologos for the Empire), or from a powerful dynasty that could back his claim.
Even if I don't have deep knowledge of medieval history, I guess than I can argue that it would be quite accurate to assume that the
de facto king will, in this case, be recognized even
de jure. Of course this could happen by means of a spectacular act to prove this legitimacy, e.g. - according to the culture - a fake ignominious accusation at the old king, or a council of local nobles swearing loyalty to the new king, or else a fake document proving the real legitimacy of the new Crown over the land. And, needless to say, the Pope should have a say (and some money) too.
What I would suggest to solve this problem... is not a real solution. I mean that it could be one, but it should imply that the whole system of claims/CB should be re-thinked. Which is not the case in CKII. So, take it as a sheer fantasy, or an idea for CKIII.
I am proposing to implement a system of "legitimacy conflict", in which, two or more rulers will be considered as more or less equally legitimate to have a title. Those kind of conflict might last for a long time (I hear someone saying "a hundred year" ^^),
What I suggest is that, ideally, every title and every claim on the title should have a "legitimacy value", like 1-100%, for example, influenced by some factors like :
- Ownership of the land
- Prestige of the two challengers
- Kinship
- The two dynasties' prestige and power
- Relationship of the two rulers with local vassals
- Relations of the two rulers with neighbors, with HRE and with Papacy
- Length of the two dynasties' control over the lands
Of course, th legitimacy of the tile holder should be in inverse proportion to the legitimacy of the claim(s) on that title. If the legitimacy of the title holder falls under a certain threshold (like, say, 70%) the strongest (like, legitimacy >10%) claimant(s) can have a
casus belli : he/they can try to affirm his/their "rights" by the force (as it was in CKI).
If the title holder's legitimacy drops lower (like, e.g. under 30%), his whole entitlement could be challenged by the strongest claimant(s). In this case, we will have what I call a "legitimacy conflict", that will work quite as the opposite as the mechanism we have seen before : the first who gains a threshold of 30% legitimacy - no matter if it is the current title holder or one of his challengers - will be (after paying some gold and prestige - to convince the local nobles - and piety - to soften the Church) the rightful owner of a title.
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