Kings granting duchies

[Third Angel]

I know that this is not a bug, so I am posting this part here.
With the massive english rebellion against their heretical king, I happen to have a Duke of Oxford, count of Besançon and vassal to the King of France, and a Duke of Gloucester, count in Germany and vassal to this King...
AI kingdoms finally granting dukes titles is actually a good thing, but I don't think such extreme things should happen, since it will now be nearly impossible to get back those titles for a would-be king of England like me...

 

[unmerged(5822)]

It is indeed a problem that duchy titles are granted outside of the actual duchy areas (and that counties are released as vassals by the king, even if there is a duke for the specific area (who should receive the province instead, so that the county will be under the proper duke instead of being independent from him))

 

[Grosshaus]

It is indeed a problem that duchy titles are granted outside of the actual duchy areas (and that counties are released as vassals by the king, even if there is a duke for the specific area (who should receive the province instead, so that the county will be under the proper duke instead of being independent from him))

If a county is released in a province that would belong to a duchy it'll switch allegiance to the duke instead of the king directly. What is the problem?

 

[unmerged(5822)]

If a county is released in a province that would belong to a duchy it'll switch allegiance to the duke instead of the king directly. What is the problem?

That's not my experience, at least not in my realm... dukes don't get suzerainty unless they themselves create the county.
(this is when the duchy comes before the county)

 

[unmerged(27106)]

If a county is released in a province that would belong to a duchy it'll switch allegiance to the duke instead of the king directly. What is the problem?

In my experience, a Duke only gets to take count vassals under his aegis if they existed when the duchy was granted. if the King creates the duhcies before the counties, all the counts would still owe their fealty directly to the King. At least, that's how it has seemed to me.

 

[Grosshaus]

Thinking about it further I don't think I've ever tried first creating a duchy and then inside it's area a county. Seems like this should be changed then.

Or are there situations where one would like to decide whether a count is a vassal of a duke or of the king? I can at least think of a situation where I have elective or semi-elective legislation and want my favoured son to have the greatest duchy and the rest a smaller one. If at the same time I have problems with demesne I would hate for the county to become to the duchy of the "wrong" son. Is that such a rare occasion that it should be ignored?

 

[Solmyr]

IMO the situation is fine as it is (new counts become vassals of the King). BUT AI kings should grant counties within the area of an existing duchy to that duchy rather than a new count. They should also only do it when they are at a demesne penalty, not all the time (otherwise AI kings would remain with just their capital province very quickly).

 

[unmerged(33590)]

Expanding existing duchies may be an unwise strategy for the AI in all instances, however...such as when Elective Law is in force and the duchy is non-family.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

IMO the situation is fine as it is (new counts become vassals of the King). BUT AI kings should grant counties within the area of an existing duchy to that duchy rather than a new count. They should also only do it when they are at a demesne penalty, not all the time (otherwise AI kings would remain with just their capital province very quickly).

Seconded all the way. (this is a problem with AI realms, not those where the player is in control)

Expanding existing duchies may be an unwise strategy for the AI in all instances, however...such as when Elective Law is in force and the duchy is non-family.

Agreed. Only family members should get titles under Elective law unless the receiver won't become a serious runner-up for the title.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Or are there situations where one would like to decide whether a count is a vassal of a duke or of the king? I can at least think of a situation where I have elective or semi-elective legislation and want my favoured son to have the greatest duchy and the rest a smaller one. If at the same time I have problems with demesne I would hate for the county to become to the duchy of the "wrong" son. Is that such a rare occasion that it should be ignored?

I understand the reasoning, but until and unless the game allows intrra-realm conflicts this just adds more explot capability to elecive-law.

 

[Third Angel]

I think you misunderstood me, or maybe I did choose a wrong title for my post

I don't think the problem is with counts not becoming vassals of the right duke when created afterwards. Actually I think this is quite normal since liege/ vassal relationship was not something you could play with. Once you grant a title, the guy is your vassal, you cannot give him away...

The issue I was trying to point out is that duchies should not continue to exist when neither the duke or his liege holds at least one county in the duchy-area. The actual holder would be sent back to his liege's court and the duchy could be created anew, and possibly granted, by anyone holding two thirds of the area...

Don't you think so?

 

[Havard]

The issue I was trying to point out is that duchies should not continue to exist when neither the duke or his liege holds at least one county in the duchy-area. The actual holder would be sent back to his liege's court and the duchy could be created anew, and possibly granted, by anyone holding two thirds of the area...

Don't you think so?

There are countless examples through history of exiled titular rulers of territories lost. There should perhaps be a better way in the game to force such rulers to give up their title though...

 

[Duuk]

There are countless examples through history of exiled titular rulers of territories lost. There should perhaps be a better way in the game to force such rulers to give up their title though...

Perhaps making the "usurp" option better?

IE: I am "Duke of Cornwall", but my entire Demense and all my vassals are in Ireland. If someone does a "Usurp", I instantly lose the title (since I have no representative to hold it at all) and receive a claim on it?

ie: Rather than require a war for me to "lose" the title, allow usurp to work.

I have always thought that usurp was a nearly worthless option as coded.

 

[Yakman]

There are countless examples through history of exiled titular rulers of territories lost. There should perhaps be a better way in the game to force such rulers to give up their title though...

But isn't that the point of claims?

 

[unmerged(2456)]

I have always thought that usurp was a nearly worthless option as coded

Myself as well.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Perhaps making the "usurp" option better?

IE: I am "Duke of Cornwall", but my entire Demense and all my vassals are in Ireland. If someone does a "Usurp", I instantly lose the title (since I have no representative to hold it at all) and receive a claim on it?

ie: Rather than require a war for me to "lose" the title, allow usurp to work.

I have always thought that usurp was a nearly worthless option as coded.

PHOENIX VULT!

I think the ones to hold a title should be the "de facto" holders of them. Everyone else can call themselves "the duke of X" all they want, it's still only a claim without manifestation in reality (no matter if the claim is legitimate or not) if the person doesn't actually own X.

 

[Duuk]

PHOENIX VULT!

I think the ones to hold a title should be the "de facto" holders of them. Everyone else can call themselves "the duke of X" all they want, it's still only a claim without manifestation in reality (no matter if the claim is legitimate or not) if the person doesn't actually own X.

I think you're agreeing with me here.

The Persian Emir can call himself Emir of Ulster all he wants, that doesn't change that fact that once I get 2 of the 3 provinces I'll *be* Duke of Ulster.

If they want to complain about it, they're welcome to declare war on me with the claim I gave them by usurping the title.

Could also lead to some nifty civil war type events when the Duke of York usurps the title King of England.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

I think you're agreeing with me here.

Correct.
("Phoenix vult" was a reference to "Deus vult", i.e. "God wants it"...)

 

[SJG]

Sounds reasonable from a gameplay point of view, but I'm not sure it's particularly realistic.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Sounds reasonable from a gameplay point of view, but I'm not sure it's particularly realistic.

Unless the "de-facto" duke of Somewhere doesn't have the title Duke of Somewhere, he won't be able to behave like the "de-facto" duke of Somewhere...