Kings, Emperors, and Statesmen: A Saga 1066-1920

[Sid Meier]

heh and now Im stuck in Byzantium figuring out how I'm going to regain lost lands.

 

[Sid Meier]

your comment was far from inoffencive my Wongtong friend.

 

[Kujy]

So you bickered, about really silly things like a broke Germany would pay Leon 900 ducats, with what money?

Like I kept repeating in the game, I don't care how you come up with it. Plant some magic beans, rob your court, I don't care. And I did also say that you can pay me later when you actually have money. Until then, I am keeping the land of the Duke of Istria indefinitely, and will go so far as to revoke his title to make sure the county stays with me.

 

[Varyar]

Well...Sterkarm and me felt the same way, but I admit I waivered for a moment to just throw the towel. But, hey...we got 300 years left. Fun? We have no namecalling, no bitching, no nothing. So far this game has been very civil I must say. Sure not so great as certain EU2MP games, but good enough.

Instead we have one enormous and terribly unbalancing empire, two humans robbed of their chosen nations within the first quarter of the CK game, and power blocks more fitting in Victoria than CK. That is not fun. Fun is what the game was before Poland shadily acquired the king-titles of Rus and Bolgar.

Oh, I must write something about the war from a "biased" strategist. The alliance, both its western (England, Naples, France and Leon) and eastern (Kiev and Pronsk) parts, failed because four things, some more important then the others.

Eastern parts failed to see that Poland was going to release Hungery. Maybe not NOW, but someday. Which means that Poland would be weaker, which means Kiev and Pronsk would have easier time in the war versus Poland. They didn't, because of lack of patiance.

We had only Sterkarms word on that, and for every minute the war was postponed, Poland would grow stronger and the risk would increase that any of the alliance members would drop for some reason. In fact, war should've been declared even before Bohemia was annexed, but since Poland was AI led that was not an option.

Atleast one of the Eastern parts failed to see the golden opportinity here. If one would have been loyal to Piast, what would have happened? Simple, after the defeat of the other, the loyal would have been granted the rivals titles. Easypeasy, and after a couple of years, maybe 80 years of loyal servitude, Poland might have granted the loyal duchy a kingtitle, if not, they would have been in a better spot to overthrow Poland. Once again, they didn't have patiance, failed to see the scope and fluidity of CK.

While true, they chose the just and honourable way instead: to try and get rid of the oppressor instead of competing to kiss his ass.

The western parts did a big miss here, mostly by labeling Germany as a "lapdog" of Poland. It might have looked that way, but since certain realms tried to convince Germany to DoW Poland, when Poland was already grossly outnumbered, not so wise, since such things might trigger a "love for the underdog". Furthermore, by not DoWing Poland, who was the main antagonist, and only Germany, you missed to whole thing about the war. A diplomatic blunder.

The risk of getting 'ambushed' by a Germany pretending to be neutral was too great, thus there was a need to assert beyond doubt the intentions of Germany. Given the almost ridiculously ambigous statements given by Germany before the ultimatum, and the not-so uncertain statements after the ultimatum, there was never any doubt. Me, I just wanted Germany to remain neutral.

Regarding DoW's, defeating a Germany that had joined Poland was an absolute must, therefore there was no reason to DoW Poland. However, I was not far from doing it. Had I only been more successful in the battles around Mecklemburg, I would've sent an army eastwards. Instead they were destroyed.

When the eastern parts failed, mostly because lack of patiance, the western part did a really big blunder. They took land from Germany. Big mistake, know why? Since you lost a potential ally. Sure, Germany supported Poland in THIS war, but next one, not that sure. You could have argued that Piast was no good catholic, and Germany might have aided, or atleast be neutral. But now? You have driven Germany firmly into the camp of Poland. Why? Lack of patiance. When the eastern war was lost, you wanted something out of it. So you took land from Germany, as a concellation price.

The aim of the war was to give the russian players their rightful titles. There were never to be a second war. Now Poland is too strong to deal with at all, and any step away from that can only be considered a friendly gesture from our new despote of the east. The Piast not a good catholic? Didn't seem like an argument you cared much about regarding Hungary, Bohemia and Pronsk. The conquest of a few patches of german land(before the polish expansion the most powerful realm in the game) is nothing else than spoils of war. Considering what you helped to do to Pronsk and Kiev, I'd say you got off lightly.

Oh, and the peacing was silly, I couldn't reject, and yet you were not agree to what to take from me. Big mistake, to go into a war without primary and secondary goals, PLANNING! is everything. So you bickered, about really silly things like a broke Germany would pay Leon 900 ducats, with what money?

I don't see why it was such a 'big mistake', but I agree that there was a lack of planning for a scenario were Germany was defeated but the war was lost. The money you would have payed, I assume, would've come from future earnings.

And England demanding that not only they would be given Netherlands, but also that Germany would give up any right to have that land in vassalage, permanently. Total bollocks. Fine that you beat me into a pulp, but if I will go trough yet another peace situation that happened, I'm out. If you beat me, take what you want, since I am in no position to say anything else, according to the rules.

I made the assumption that since we are all human players, we would use some human-to-human diplomacy and not always be restricted by the game engine. Apparently that was a mistake.

Now Germany is broken, but I have patiance. I know that England, France and Naples will sooner or later have a rough spot, and then I will reclaim what is rightfully a part of Germany.

Why wait? With your polish friend at your side, you could take them at any time you please.

Regarding the war, my 'analysis' is simple. Had Norway struck Mecklemburg instead of Pomerania, and had Byzantium been human and attacked Poland as it should've, the war could've ended differently. Not for sure, but possibly.

 

[Sterkarm]

Well, you most certainly have concerns Varyar, concerns that I hope will be addressed. I honestly don't want to dominate Europe for very long, but I will most certainly try. However, I doubt I can hold on for a long while, my only goal in the long-term is to maintain my empire of Poland-Rus-Lithuania until EU2. But I doubt that will happen, even in MTT I lost and regained Rus at least 3 times.

 

[Lurken]

Instead we have one enormous and terribly unbalancing empire, two humans robbed of their chosen nations within the first quarter of the CK game, and power blocks more fitting in Victoria than CK. That is not fun. Fun is what the game was before Poland shadily acquired the king-titles of Rus and Bolgar.

Okey, Poland is big. But it will not stay big. When Norway get properly ordered, that is, nabbing Sweden, Denmark and part of Finland. Hungery is released, as promised. And Byzan lifts of the ground. Poland will hit a bad heir, and then it is free for all.

And what would have Poland have done after the victory? Given Kiev and Pronsk a slap on the wrist for a botched rebellion?

We had only Sterkarms word on that, and for every minute the war was postponed, Poland would grow stronger and the risk would increase that any of the alliance members would drop for some reason. In fact, war should've been declared even before Bohemia was annexed, but since Poland was AI led that was not an option.

Stronger, how? They had already expanded enough, and believe, big realms isn't stable, it is enough that one vassal get rebellious trait, and then he gets realm duress and then it is really bad. Patiance, once more.

While true, they chose the just and honourable way instead: to try and get rid of the oppressor instead of competing to kiss his ass.

Honour is good. But what feeds your family? Good intentions and honour? No. Kissing ass to the boss. They failed to appreciate the strenght of Poland with Hungery. They made a bad choice.

The risk of getting 'ambushed' by a Germany pretending to be neutral was too great, thus there was a need to assert beyond doubt the intentions of Germany. Given the almost ridiculously ambigous statements given by Germany before the ultimatum, and the not-so uncertain statements after the ultimatum, there was never any doubt. Me, I just wanted Germany to remain neutral.

A sound tactic I must say, eliminating potential dangers is very wise thing to do.

Regarding DoW's, defeating a Germany that had joined Poland was an absolute must, therefore there was no reason to DoW Poland. However, I was not far from doing it. Had I only been more successful in the battles around Mecklemburg, I would've sent an army eastwards. Instead they were destroyed.

No reason to DoW Poland? I beg to differ, the whole shebang was about Poland. Not about Germany.

The aim of the war was to give the russian players their rightful titles. There were never to be a second war. Now Poland is too strong to deal with at all, and any step away from that can only be considered a friendly gesture from our new despote of the east. The Piast not a good catholic? Didn't seem like an argument you cared much about regarding Hungary, Bohemia and Pronsk. The conquest of a few patches of german land(before the polish expansion the most powerful realm in the game) is nothing else than spoils of war. Considering what you helped to do to Pronsk and Kiev, I'd say you got off lightly.

"Rightful titles"? If you wanted to have Sid as the king of Rus, then why didn't you press to have that title edited to him at the start? The same for germax. There are no thing as designated titles. If you get it, fine. If you don't get it, then you are still around and able to do stuff.

I don't see why it was such a 'big mistake', but I agree that there was a lack of planning for a scenario were Germany was defeated but the war was lost. The money you would have payed, I assume, would've come from future earnings.

Why would I pay with money I earn in the future, if I don't have to. Before you say anything, remember that I never agreed on paying them anything. If they wanted something, they would have taken something that I could give, ergo Mecklenburg. Sure I complained a bit, but it was in the full right and power of Leon to take it, they didn't.

I made the assumption that since we are all human players, we would use some human-to-human diplomacy and not always be restricted by the game engine. Apparently that was a mistake.

What diplomacy was there to be made? I would never agree to any term that was bad for me. Never. I RP, Adolf would have never given in. Picture yourself into my position, not only that I have been beaten, but my vassals are revolting as well, people tend to get a bit steamed up. Fine that I was a bit unreasonable. But I said clearly many times to send the peace offer, yet you failed. Sid said also, "send the peace offer", yet you failed.

About me being unreasonable, one part of Englands demands was that I would rescind any liegeship over Netherlands for all future. A thing, impossible to do, by game-engine, unless editing. That demand is as if I would have demanded that Land's end would be no longer considered english, but german.
Just plain silly.

Why wait? With your polish friend at your side, you could take them at any time you please.

Why would I use the friendship with the poles like that? To have them slaughtered on the fields for Germanys gains? I am aware of "balance", therefore I will not take it back any time I please.

It is impressive how people can get steamed up, for a war they did not lose anything. Sure Poland is big, but England is unhurt. Have patiance, and remember. "Smile and hid that dagger of yours behind your back."

 

[unmerged(31960)]

To everyone, i see growing tension between you, chill out! im the player with the biggest lost and still i'm gonna keep playing, you know why? because i think we have a lot of time and the things can change a lot! so pls Varyar, stay, i enjoy having this game on sundays and want to keep it like that.
About the polish uber kigndom, well, we have a saying here "no hay mal que dure 100 años ni cuerpo que lo resista" which means "there is no evil that lasts 100 years nor body that can resist it" so keep your hopes, also i want to comment that i don't think that taking alllll my country was quite fair... but then again, it's just a comment, a personal oppinion that i do not wish to discuss, just wanted to let you know my position.
Also, as final, i was wondering that if we could make the republic of venice playable for me, i see it as a not so strong country that has plenty of options and a great position and could give me a good start up.
Post your oppinions

 

[Lurken]

Venice is doable, it would however require an edit.

And great to see such sportmanship germax! *hugs germax*

 

[unmerged(31960)]

ty.

Yep, although its quitesimple, i just did it in my comp to test the country.

Change the goverment type from republican to feudal

 

[Lurken]

ty.

Yep, although its quitesimple, i just did it in my comp to test the country.

Change the goverment type from republican to feudal

Yup. Still an edit, right?

And you are aware that you would be in a very steep slope. With Naples to the south and Germany, longing to get Tirol back. But! With a muslim neighbourgh to your east, which are free to take, if a crusade stats.

 

[Sid Meier]

how would you expand into Italy though? arent they human?

 

[Sid Meier]

woah woah WOAH! I warn against this I had a similar situation in CQS, I was able to unite most of italy but lost it to sejuks.

 

[Lurken]

how would you expand into Italy though? arent they human?

Only Naples, AFAIK

woah woah WOAH! I warn against this I had a similar situation in CQS, I was able to unite most of italy but lost it to sejuks.

Why should that happen here? Every game is unique.

 

[Sid Meier]

Not if I have something to say about it.

 

[unmerged(31960)]

Besides, who told you that i necesarilly have to expand through italy... i could get a nice palace n greece

 

[Sid Meier]

ooooh no you dont you little wonton.

 

[Sterkarm]

To everyone, i see growing tension between you, chill out! im the player with the biggest lost and still i'm gonna keep playing, you know why? because i think we have a lot of time and the things can change a lot! so pls Varyar, stay, i enjoy having this game on sundays and want to keep it like that.
About the polish uber kigndom, well, we have a saying here "no hay mal que dure 100 años ni cuerpo que lo resista" which means "there is no evil that lasts 100 years nor body that can resist it" so keep your hopes, also i want to comment that i don't think that taking alllll my country was quite fair... but then again, it's just a comment, a personal oppinion that i do not wish to discuss, just wanted to let you know my position.
Also, as final, i was wondering that if we could make the republic of venice playable for me, i see it as a not so strong country that has plenty of options and a great position and could give me a good start up.
Post your oppinions

Wow, that is an exemplary show of sportsmanship and being a good player. Thank you, Germax, I'm not sure I could do the same in your situation.

As for Venice, while it could be done with a couple edits, I would think that the Kingdom of Italy would be better overall. Completely your choice though, but Hungary will be up for play sometime soon. Also, there is the Kingdom of Sweden.

 

[unmerged(55974)]

My internet was out of service during the Sunday. Wish I could have made it and actually participated in the war. From the sounds of it the there was no sure victor except for Poland.

I will try to be in this next sunday for sure

 

[unmerged(31960)]

yep i know that italy is a better choice, but plaing italy, well, im a bit tyred of the great italian dream of unification, i have a waaaayyyy different idea, thats why i think venice suits me well

 

[Lurken]

yep i know that italy is a better choice, but plaing italy, well, im a bit tyred of the great italian dream of unification, i have a waaaayyyy different idea, thats why i think venice suits me well

Nice nice...Looking forward to see what you have in mind.

But this would require an edit, are everyone happy that we edit Venice from republic to feudal?