Kingdom titles created out of thin air on monarch death

[Oscaretti]

I was playing as a King of Poland(my only top level title) and having a good run. My succession law was agnatic-cognatic elective gavelkind, and during my King's reign i had a notification about title loss on succession. It was just two counties outside my capital duchy, so didn't seem like that big of a deal, I wasn't over vassal or demesne limit so I though everything would go smoothly. But on my monarch's death, i suddenly see my kingdom split into 3, cause 2 new previously non existent titles appeared. Kingdoms of Bohemia and Pomerania. Is this working as intended, or a bug? And if it's working as intended, it would be great if there was telegraphed somehow. Cause the only thing I was told was that 2 counties were being lost.

I've just read the line about new Kingdoms being created if possible, but it should be displayed better, like a warning saying "On monarch death, new independent countries will be created"

Anyhow, I'm just a little frustrated, here's a cursed screenshot

 

[junassa]

I was playing as a King of Poland(my only top level title) and having a good run. My succession law was agnatic-cognatic elective gavelkind, and during my King's reign i had a notification about title loss on succession. It was just two counties outside my capital duchy, so didn't seem like that big of a deal, I wasn't over vassal or demesne limit so I though everything would go smoothly. But on my monarch's death, i suddenly see my kingdom split into 3, cause 2 new previously non existent titles appeared. Kingdoms of Bohemia and Pomerania. Is this working as intended, or a bug? And if it's working as intended, it would be great if there was telegraphed somehow. Cause the only thing I was told was that 2 counties were being lost.

I've just read the line about new Kingdoms being created if possible, but it should be displayed better, like a warning saying "On monarch death, new independent countries will be created"

Anyhow, I'm just a little frustrated, here's a cursed screenshot

Yeah you want to get out of elective gavelkind asap or form an empire.

 

[jwalche]

That's why majority of people talk about getting out of elective gavelkind asap.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Your secondary heirs (sons) will split your land if they can. It is somewhat possible to predict, as a son that would create a kingdom on succession, says he´s a heir to "kingdom of Pomerania" even if that title does not exist. All your current vassals holding a primary title in de-jure Pomerania will be his vassals after succession.

It would be good to get some warnings here but the systems itself is quite cool and controllable when you understand it. you just need to consider it when expanding into new de-jure kingdom. If you get the notification that you can create Pomerania, then a secondary heir will have it created upon succession.

I disagree with everyone here telling you to get out of elective gavelkind ASAP. It´s a great fun unless you only want to blob fast. If you don't like it, consider playing Romova(Elderly with Holy Fury DLC), Muslim(heir selection) or Celtic(Tanistry).

Some things to you can think of when identifying that this is happening:
1. Secure titles under your primary kingdom. Vassals owning land in both Poland and Pomerania might be good or bad, as it´s their primary title that decides where they will be vassals after succession.
2. Transferring a few Pomeranian counts under Poland dukes can make the succession a bit easier, as this land will stay in your heir's realm(at the very least, they won't strengthen the king of Pomerania)
3. Consider landing your secondary heirs outside of your kingdom de - jure. This will mess up and recalculate the succession though. and remember that they will get a vote as well. This can be used to your favour as well, by selecting a different heir your self, you might be able to land your preferred heir as well, then switching back to support him again. Can be a bit sneaky but most tricks to get around the massively boxed gavelkind restrictions to landing your heir is good.

Pros:
Your heir will get claim on all kingdoms created
With proper management and no untimely deaths, it´s a cheep way to have the kingdoms created, preparing for empire creation.
You are standing a good chance of inheriting the land.
Best son/kin might be selected as your heir

Cons:
Losing land is never fun
Distant useless diplo 10 - kin stands a decent chance to be supported over your warrior sons <-- this is my biggest problem with EG

 

[jwalche]

I disagree with everyone here telling you to get out of elective gavelkind ASAP. It´s a great fun unless you only want to blob fast.

1. I agree with you that it's fun. Your main heir has strong claim on all the split out kingdoms, so taking them back in isn't too hard. You lost entire Sweden with 30 counties? But you have your father's retinue. Beat your younger brother's puny army a few times to raise war scores to 100%, and your brother is your docile vassal duke.

2. That split can also help you to blob fast due to once in a life time tribal subjugation CB, become a king of xx ambition, and breaking truce. How:

Let's say Sigurdr had 6 sons when he died, and his realm became six independent kingdoms. Ragnarr is the main heir and you are playing him. Use his tribal subjugation CB, call bunch of small wars. Beat them all, and abdicate to the second son and become his courtier. Repeat with each son. Then abdicate back to Ragnarr.

 

[WomboCombo]

1. I agree with you that it's fun. Your main heir has strong claim on all the split out kingdoms, so taking them back in isn't too hard. You lost entire Sweden with 30 counties? But you have your father's retinue. Beat your younger brother's puny army a few times to raise war scores to 100%, and your brother is your docile vassal duke.

2. That split can also help you to blob fast due to once in a life time tribal subjugation CB, become a king of xx ambition, and breaking truce. How:

Let's say Sigurdr had 6 sons when he died, and his realm became six independent kingdoms. Ragnarr is the main heir and you are playing him. Use his tribal subjugation CB, call bunch of small wars. Beat them all, and abdicate to the second son and become his courtier. Repeat with each son. Then abdicate back to Ragnarr.

Just duel all your brothers for it.

 

[Tryvenyal]

2. That split can also help you to blob fast due to once in a life time tribal subjugation CB, become a king of xx ambition, and breaking truce. How:

Let's say Sigurdr had 6 sons when he died, and his realm became six independent kingdoms. Ragnarr is the main heir and you are playing him. Use his tribal subjugation CB, call bunch of small wars. Beat them all, and abdicate to the second son and become his courtier. Repeat with each son. Then abdicate back to Ragnarr.

That´s too abusive for me but I fully agree, played out right, EG can be a good way to blob, as a raiding multiking is quickly an emperer, with the ability to quickly expand.

 

[jwalche]

Just duel all your brothers for it.

What if they are all children?

 

[Secret Master]

What if they are all children?

It’s easy to convince people to murder children.

I don’t think any of my under age brothers have survived assassination when I divide titles under gavelkind.

I tell a lie. I had one brother survive... because his physician chopped off his hand and the infection killed him before our plot could be hatched.

 

[BrokenSky]

To be honest I do feel that gavelkind succession (both kinds) needs a bit of a rework to, at the very least, make it clearer who is getting which titles and why. Personally I'd also like it if there were a little more capacity to control who gets what (I've had irritating splits which didn't make sense because the game prioritized the wrong land to keep before - for example one game where I started as norse and was moving into holland, and personally held land in both Denmark and several duchies in the low countries, and the game kept thinking it needed to prioritize keeping the danish stuff over, say, brabant, when really I would have much prefered my heir getting the low countries stuff and splitting the (arguably more valuable) danish stuff between my other sons).

But yeah. More transparency in gavelkind calculations would be very good, more interactivity in saying who gets what would be nice (but presumably more work - I'd imagine they'd need to do something which stopped the player just giving all the land to one son, but any non-sledgehammery solution could become a lot of work).

 

[Secret Master]

More transparency in gavelkind calculations would be very good

There is some logic to it, but it sure isn't in the game itself.

This portion of the wiki gives some of the logic behind gavelkind: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Gavelkind#Title_division

But the player does have a lot of input in gavelkind... it's just not clear that you have that input. Because titles held by your children "count" in terms of gavelkind, you can more or less remove sons from succession (if they are not the primary heir) by giving them a bunch of titles before you die. This is why conquest/revocation under gavelkind carries more value than the it does for other succession laws; you want to grab more land simply to give it out to sons so your primary heir can get the right demesne.

Pay attention to the indicator for losing titles upon succession. If you hand out duchies and counties, you'll see the number of titles you will lose upon succession change as you hand out titles.

The key is that you can't really give land to the primary heir. But in elective gavelkind, the primary heir might change sometimes, throwing your plans out whack. Another issue is that the wiki will tell you higher tier titles carry more weight. So, if you are an emperor, your primary heir will get the empire... but it counts for so much that he may get just your capital, while his brothers get everything else. It can be hard to grab enough titles to give out to brothers to forestall gavelkind by giving out titles in this situation.

But it's better than nothing.

 

[DPS]

I would have much prefered my heir getting the low countries stuff and splitting the (arguably more valuable) danish stuff between my other sons).

The system will always give your capital to your primary heir. To ensure that he inherits a particular county, move your capital there.

 

[BrokenSky]

There is some logic to it, but it sure isn't in the game itself.

This portion of the wiki gives some of the logic behind gavelkind: https://ck2.paradoxwikis.com/Gavelkind#Title_division

But the player does have a lot of input in gavelkind... it's just not clear that you have that input. Because titles held by your children "count" in terms of gavelkind, you can more or less remove sons from succession (if they are not the primary heir) by giving them a bunch of titles before you die. This is why conquest/revocation under gavelkind carries more value than the it does for other succession laws; you want to grab more land simply to give it out to sons so your primary heir can get the right demesne.

Pay attention to the indicator for losing titles upon succession. If you hand out duchies and counties, you'll see the number of titles you will lose upon succession change as you hand out titles.

The key is that you can't really give land to the primary heir. But in elective gavelkind, the primary heir might change sometimes, throwing your plans out whack. Another issue is that the wiki will tell you higher tier titles carry more weight. So, if you are an emperor, your primary heir will get the empire... but it counts for so much that he may get just your capital, while his brothers get everything else. It can be hard to grab enough titles to give out to brothers to forestall gavelkind by giving out titles in this situation.

But it's better than nothing.

The system will always give your capital to your primary heir. To ensure that he inherits a particular county, move your capital there.

I mean I personally do know, for the most part, how to get the system to do most of what I want; my point was more that the lack of transparency is bad for gameplay for the exact reason that people like the OP don't understand what it's going to do before it happens and end up asking "wait is this a bug?" when the split is wildly different from how they expected.

As a rule I think if something in a game has that effect, generally it needs better signposting (standard disclaimer; unless it's a deliberate design decision to be opaque).