Kingdom of Portugal and Galicia

[KaiserChicken]

I'm sorry if this issue has been already addressed and (logically) deemed impossible, but I would like to, nonetheless, call your attention to a certain geopolitical issue present in the 1066 scenario, in Iberia.

Currently, next to the Kingdoms of Leon and Castile, we have the Duchies of Galicia and Braganza. However, in 1066, that area was occupied by the Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal, ruled by Garcia II of Galicia and Portucale, son of Ferdinand I (King of Leon). Only in 1071 or 1072 (I don't remember exactly when), the Kingdom was re-annexed by Castile and both Portugal and Galicia had their status reverted to separate Counties (which would later be placed in the hands of Henry and Raymond of Burgundy, respectively).

Besides, the Duchy of Braganza was only created in the 15th century, by King Alphonzo V of Portugal.

Therefore, I would like to know if there's the possibility of creating a Kingdom of Portugal and Galicia (Portugaliza) - different from the Kingdom of Spanish Galicia that was once put into an old patch (don't remember exactly which one) - which would replace the present Duchies of Galicia and Braganza.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

To put it shortly: No.

I'm sure someone puts it in a longer explanation why not soon enough, with important parts of it being that Garcia was in Sancho's prison in 1066 already and that kingdom of Portugal was only recognized close to mid 12th century.

Unurgent renaming of duchies is something that might be done in 1.06.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

What you said Kaiser is all true and stands but it will hardly be brought back. Galician kingdom was mainly removed because of "gameplay reasons" although it is completly historically correct.

What I suggested is to remove both duchies of Braganza and Coimbra since they were both founded in 15 century...almost at the end of CK timeframe. One of the duchies would be renamed to 'Portugal' and would be 'Duchy of Portugal' to represent very important 'County of Portugal'. Duchy of Viseu would be merged with Tejo and renamed Alentejo.

Anway you can easily add both Galicia(SGAL) and Portugal to Sancho in 1066 yourself.

 

[KaiserChicken]

To put it shortly: No.

I'm sure someone puts it in a longer explanation why not soon enough, with important parts of it being that Garcia was in Sancho's prison in 1066 already and that kingdom of Portugal was only recognized close to mid 12th century.

Unurgent renaming of duchies is something that might be done in 1.06.

I did not talk about the Kingdom of Portugal - that only appeared in 1143, upon official recognition of the Kingdom of Leon. I am talking about the Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal (hence I used the term Portugaliza).

Secondly, Garcia only went to exile to Al-Andalus in 1071. Sources:
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsEurope/IberiaGalicia.htm
http://www.portugalweb.net/historia/apontamentos/medieval.asp (in Portuguese)
http://www.xenealoxia.org/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=103 (in Galician)

I have history books which prove these dates as well.

What I suggested is to remove both duchies of Braganza and Coimbra since they were both founded in 15 century...almost at the end of CK timeframe. One of the duchies would be renamed to 'Portugal' and would be 'Duchy of Portugal' to represent very important 'County of Portugal'. Duchy of Viseu would be merged with Tejo and renamed Alentejo.

Yes, albeit slightly historically incorrect (just for five or six years in fact), that would be a better solution: to put the Counties of Galicia and Portugal as vassals of the Kingdom of Leon.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Secondly, Garcia only went to exile to Al-Andalus in 1071. Sources:
http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsEurope/IberiaGalicia.htm

Since I can't read Portuguese or Galician, I'll just quote this one a bit:

1065 - 1071 Garcia Never ruled.

However, Sancho II prevents García from taking up his kingdom

1072 Sancho dies, and the whole kingdom immediately falls to Alfonso, who maintains the unity of the kingdom by imprisoning García until his death.

1072 - 1075 Garcia Restored (again, never ruled).

So by that site it's actually generous for Garcia to have him as duke of Galicia even.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

By that site...there are numerous others that confimr the existance of this kingdom from 1065-1071. Even the site you quote here admits that fact.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Existance in name only though.

 

[KaiserChicken]

I admit that that site's information is a bit confusing, but I can translate the information presented on the other sites:

"After the death of Ferdinand the Great, in 1065, his State was divided among his three sons:
Sancho ruled Castile
Afonso ruled Leon
Garcia ruled Galicia, together with Portucale

The Portuguese Count Nuno Mendes headed, in 1071, a revolt against Garcia. This was the first Portuguese independentist attempt. Garcia, willing to crush the revolt, met with the Count in Pedroso, North of Braga, between that city and the Cávado River. Count Nuno Mendes is defeated, becoming therefore the last Count of the regional nobility to rule Portucale.

The Kingdoms of Leon and Castile are once again united, under Afonso VI, who, arresting his brother Garcia, obtains Galicia."

This therefore implies that Garcia was arrested AFTER the Portuguese revolt which he was able to crush in 1071.

Now the Galician site is much more explicit:

"1065 dC - King Ferdinand dies, after submiting his brother, Garcia of Navarre. He conquered Murcia and Seville and made his vassal the King of Toledo. His death will mean the division of his kingdom among his sons. Sancho, the primogenit, will get Castile. Afonso, his favourite, gets Leon. Garcia, the youngest, receives Galicia and Portugal. His daughters, Urraca gets the County of Zamora and Elvira the County of Toro.

1071 dC - King Sancho of Castile usurps the throne of his brother Garcia, King of Galicia, and the latter one runs away to Al-Andalus."

 

[unmerged(21937)]

So either the English site or the Portuguese and Galician sites are wrong.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

I am baffled at the invention of the fact that the kingdom of Galicia is also... kingdom of Portugal?

Such a pretension... I have never read that single fact, and I must assure you that I'm quite proficient (even from an amateurish approach) in Iberian medieval history. The kingdom of Galicia, apart from the considerations already given was never, ever, kingdom of Portugal. That crown would not appear until the XII century. And what is more, it was never related or claimed succession from the ephimeral kingdom of Galicia, and what is even more, the crown of Portugal never moved a militar or diplomatic finger to attack or even claim the lands north of the Miño river.

My only conclusion is that the claims proposed in the initial post are only, unless proved in an adequate fashion, which has failed to do so until now (the web pages did not support the basic facts that would actually prove the mentioned points), originated to support an older but fake origin for the Portuguese kingdom.

To put it shortly:

- The kingdom of Galicia was never kingdom of Portugal.
- The crown of Portugal has no ties or claims within the lands of tittles of Galicia.
- Garcia never actually ruled.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Sorry Lucius but you are wrong. Everything I read about Galician kingdom at that period mentions Portugal as secondary title as well. In 12th century Portugal only became independent because it came from County of Portugal.

 

[Lucius Sulla]

Sorry Lucius but you are wrong. Everything I read about Galician kingdom at that period mentions Portugal as secondary title as well. In 12th century Portugal only became independent because it came from County of Portugal.

Well, if I write something, I can 'read it' myself. I wonder, though, where have you read it? Your sources do not prove that claim. Do you have anything 'real' and written by an expert that would prove that claim? The more I read, the less I find anything that points to your line of argumentation.

I just have taken the bother to consult a friend who has a 5 years degree in history... and his oppinion is also completely contrary to your claims.

 

[KaiserChicken]

Here is my bibliography:


Tratado dos Reinos Ibéricos Medievais, Manuel de Sousa, Sporpress, 2001
As origens dos apelidos das familias portuguesas, Manuel de Sousa, Sporpress, 2002
História Diplomática Portuguesa, Jorge Borges de Macedo, Bertrand, 1987
Ciência Política, Adriano Moreira, Bertrand

All these books mention the "Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal". I would consider the hypothesis of our sources (both mine and yours) being biased in regards to that fact, as I'm a Portuguese who goes for Portuguese sources and you are Spanish who probably bases his knowledge mainly on Spanish sources. But that theory is destroyed by the third site I presented, a Galician site which clearly states that "Galicia and Portugal were given to Garcia". Even Wikipedia, which I do not consider as being a proper viable source, has an article for the "Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal".

Ramiro II of Leon, who ruled between 931 and 951, adopted the title of King of the Portuguese Lands. After defeating the Portuguese revolt of Count Nuno Mendes (I hope you are not contesting the fact that this revolt happened - it marked the end of the Vimaro Dynasty in the County of Portucale), Garcia II claimed the title of Rei de Portucale, King of Portugal, in order to pacify the rebels.

And your claim that the Portuguese Crown never crossed the Minho River is wrong. In 1369, King Ferdinand I of Portugal invaded Galicia, being forced to retreat shortly after, as Henry II of Castile manages to capture Braga.

 

[Grosshaus]

Changes like this that aren´t agreed upon and easy to implement won´t be in official patches, moved.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Strange how you managed to agree to remove Galicia....

 

[KaiserChicken]

Why did some of the official patches implement such drastic changes in Iberian geopolitics before, then?

 

[Lucius Sulla]

Why did some of the official patches implement such drastic changes in Iberian geopolitics before, then?

Gameplay... way too many kingdom tittles in Iberia.

Ah... and I'm not a Spanish, but a Catalan nationalist. So just go figure my "hidden interest" in this matter... If one matter would arise my own desires for historical remodelation, that would be the "southern france" thread in the Beta forum, since I'm fully convinced that in the 1187 scenario a great part of the occitan lands should be Aragonese vassals, not French vassals. But well, since I know in part I would be doing it out of my own biased point of view, I have preferred not to intervene.

I'm still missing the particular line in the galician site that supports your claim... it speaks in, as late as 1095 of a county of Portugal, but never of a crown of Portugal. The first time the term king of Portugal is mentioned is 1139. Thus, what you are saying about the fact that this third site supporting your theory is untrue or a plain and simple lie, taking profit of other people not being able to read Galician (which I can).

So, as you can see, two out of three of the sites pressented show that there was no portuguese crown tittle in 1066. Not bad, considering that they were pressented as 'proof' of exactly the opposite thing.

 

[KaiserChicken]

"1065 d. C.- Morre El-rei Fernando I despois de someter o seu irmán Garcia de Navarra. Internouse nos reinos de Murcia e Sevilla, e fixo vasalo do seu reino o rei de Toledo. A súa morte reparte o seu reino entre os seus fillos. O primoxénito Sancho herdará Castela. Afonso o favorito herdará León. García o menor recibirá Galiza e Potugal. As fillas, Urraca o infanzado de Zamora e dona Elvira o de Toro."

It clearly states "Galicia and Portugal". Besides, it is known that Garcia styled himself "King of Portugal" after the Nuno Mendes revolt.

If that is not true, it is nonetheless strange that so many sources mention the Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal. There was indeed a Kingdom of Galicia, which dated back to the Wisigoth invasions and wose crown was later taken by Ordonho II, Sancho Ordonhes and Bermudo II of Leon (all this in the 10th century). Garcia's Kingdom was, however, the Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal.

And in regards to your claim of lack of Portuguese interest in Galicia, it should also be noted that King Afonso V (the same who created the Duchy of Braganza) claimed the title of King of Galicia in 1475 (de jure, only).

 

[Lucius Sulla]

"1065 d. C.- Morre El-rei Fernando I despois de someter o seu irmán Garcia de Navarra. Internouse nos reinos de Murcia e Sevilla, e fixo vasalo do seu reino o rei de Toledo. A súa morte reparte o seu reino entre os seus fillos. O primoxénito Sancho herdará Castela. Afonso o favorito herdará León. García o menor recibirá Galiza e Potugal. As fillas, Urraca o infanzado de Zamora e dona Elvira o de Toro."

It clearly states "Galicia and Portugal". Besides, it is known that Garcia styled himself "King of Portugal" after the Nuno Mendes revolt.

If that is not true, it is nonetheless strange that so many sources mention the Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal. There was indeed a Kingdom of Galicia, which dated back to the Wisigoth invasions and wose crown was later taken by Ordonho II, Sancho Ordonhes and Bermudo II of Leon (all this in the 10th century). Garcia's Kingdom was, however, the Kingdom of Galicia and Portugal.

And in regards to your claim of lack of Portuguese interest in Galicia, it should also be noted that King Afonso V (the same who created the Duchy of Braganza) claimed the title of King of Galicia in 1475 (de jure, only).

Exactly, he received the Kingdom of Galicia and the County of Portugal. During through all the page to that point everytime Portugal is referenced is as a county. Your reference to the fact of Garcia calling himself King of Portugal is only made up with the data you have showed up. Frankly, I'm a bit tired that you keep trying to fake the evidence to fit your nationalistic urges.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Lucius you are wrong, you have been proven wrong and you don't want to admit that.