You need to conquer a subcontinent to form one. and koj is a religious title.
Kingdom of Jerusalem (KoJ)..
- Thread starter Windspear
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I always assumed that the reason that Muslims couldn't form it was because the achievement for forming it would be too easy otherwise.
I mean that Jerusalem is the only one with de jure land. India has no de jure land until created, while Jerusalem always does. Could you clarify what you mean with "religious title"?
It might be because of the large amount of Prestige (or Piety can't remember been a while since I created it) that you get for creating the title it for most religions gain it would make no sense (only makes sense for Christians and Jews) I am more in support of having multiple ways to form it where the Christian way and Jewish way (AKA Israel) stays more or less the same (maybe fusing the two titles together and have the flag and name change depending on religion) and give other religions the ability to form it with no bonus what so ever since it is not important holy title for them.
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As said before the Kingdom of Jerusalem was a Catholic concept, alongside the Kingdom of Cyprus for example. The game is literally called Crusader Kings, Jerusalem is arguably the point of the game, and to allow Muslims or any non-Christian faith to form it is silly. It would be the same as letting a non-Jew form Israel. De jure dirft or custom kingdom there are plenty of options to allow you to rule Jerusalem to your own liking.
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To medieval Muslims, Jerusalem was just a particularly crappy part of Syria that the Franks had a weird obsession with.
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Not really...
"In Sunni Islam, Jerusalem is the third-holiest city, after Mecca and Medina.[12][13] In Islamic tradition in 610 CE it became the first qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (salat),[14] and Muhammad made his Night Journey there ten years later, ascending to heaven where he speaks to God, according to the Quran.[15][16]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem
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The reason for K_Jerusalem's wonkiness that is because of how the Crusades mechanic works - targetting de-jure kingdoms - and the wonkiness that would result should.
There really does need to be a better system for it, but it's to solve things like the Crusades taking the Kingdom of Mesopotamia because d_jerusalem drifted.
There really does need to be a better system for it, but it's to solve things like the Crusades taking the Kingdom of Mesopotamia because d_jerusalem drifted.
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The point people a re trying to make is that there should be a different kingdom that fills out the same de jure area available for non-Christians. It simply doesn't make sense that every other duchy belongs to a kingdom that you can form, except a cluster of them centered on Jerusalem.
I think the optimal way to do it would be to have a kingdom of Palestine as the default de jure kingdom in the area. But then if you're Christian you can create a kingdom of Jerusalem by decision to replace it (or that could happen automatically if the area is conquered by a crusade), much like in early start dates there is a kingdom of Asturitas which you can later replace with a kingdom of Leon. It would be two different kingdom level titles occupying the same de_jure area.
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That's absurd though. The Kingdom of Jerusalem wouldn't even be considered de jure to anyone apart from maybe the Catholics.
You can't de jure drift the area (at least not easily) if you are an emperor.
The idea that nobody apart from the Catholics don't consider that (highly important) region a de jure part of anything is frankly silly.
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Then the same should apply to jews and the kingdom of Israel.
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You do realise the idea of 'de jure Kingdoms' isn't actually historical either? You think every European ruler adhered to strict lines on a map they didn't have the cartography to follow precisely? De jure land is a game mechanic to help launch the Crusades. Jerusalem is three duchies. Three duchies. You can just create the CUSTOM Kingdom of Jerusalem if you really want to as a Muslim or Indian. If you're an Indian Emperor and you're touching Jerusalem you aren't going to lose sleep over a three-duchy Viceroyalty.
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I am playing a Hindu Raja and if I can create European Duchies and kingdoms such as Mesepotemia where no Hindu Raja ever set foot with his armies in recorded history, then why is Kingdom of Jerusalem restricted to Christians only?.......thats what i want to know......
And if you still want to keep it restricted to Christians in terms of Prestige and Piety rewards, then at least give other religions ability to organise the duchies in the area under a different title, I have conquered that whole region but I can't create a higher level title in the area.......its just silly......(And I don't know why you would want to keep the Prestige and Piety rewards restricted to Christians because when Saladin conquered the region his Prestige, Piety, Reputation whatever you like to call it, grew by tons......this feat by Saladin will be talked until the end of times, so I am not sure why Prestige and Piety reward should be restricted to Christians either)
But anyway, what I like to say is this, what happened in history is one thing, but give players freedom to rewrite it with their game play........ isn't this part of the fun of this game?
I am sure every player must have conquered regions in this game where their controlled character never actually set foot in the entire history, but in game they are building an empire in that area with that character, so when you restrict KoJ only to Christians, it just doesn't make sense at all.........
Oh and I just created Persian Empire with my Hindu Raja.......so please don't tell me that KoJ is restricted to only Christians to keep it consistent with actual history....that's a load of bullshit....
And if you still want to keep it restricted to Christians in terms of Prestige and Piety rewards, then at least give other religions ability to organise the duchies in the area under a different title, I have conquered that whole region but I can't create a higher level title in the area.......its just silly......(And I don't know why you would want to keep the Prestige and Piety rewards restricted to Christians because when Saladin conquered the region his Prestige, Piety, Reputation whatever you like to call it, grew by tons......this feat by Saladin will be talked until the end of times, so I am not sure why Prestige and Piety reward should be restricted to Christians either)
But anyway, what I like to say is this, what happened in history is one thing, but give players freedom to rewrite it with their game play........ isn't this part of the fun of this game?
I am sure every player must have conquered regions in this game where their controlled character never actually set foot in the entire history, but in game they are building an empire in that area with that character, so when you restrict KoJ only to Christians, it just doesn't make sense at all.........
Oh and I just created Persian Empire with my Hindu Raja.......so please don't tell me that KoJ is restricted to only Christians to keep it consistent with actual history....that's a load of bullshit....
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That's modern Islam Thure, there's a reason nobody seriously tried to recover the city for Islam till the middle of Saladin's reign.
The only peoples who thought Jerusalem was important enough to center a Kingdom around, were the Jews, and the Catholics. Saladin conquered Jeruselem, because it was bisecting his actually important territory and held some important fortresses. He never moved to declare himself king of the region, nor did he show any interest in wiping the crusaders out once they offered peace.
In conclusion, stop whining and create a custom kingdom.
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Modern Islam? "In Islamic tradition in 610 CE it became the first qibla, the focal point for Muslim prayer (salat)" 610 CE doesn't sound very modern for me...
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You have Wikipedia, I have a book on Jerusalem and a book on the Crusades. Jerusalem was only the Qibla for some 13 years before it was changed to Mecca, were it has stayed, and even that account is based on shaky sources. In Medieval Islam it had some significance as the location of the Night of Ascension. But it was nowhere near as important as Mecca and Medina. It was the Christians and Jews that had an obsession with the place.
Why are people quoting actual history (even though they are wrong in saying Jerusalem is only important to Christian and Jews) but why is everyone actually quoting real history? It may be used to provide basis for the game but it shouldn't dictate or restrict player choice and how a player wants to proceed in the game...........and in most cases it doesn't as I was able create Mesopotamia and Persian Empire with a Hindu Raja but KoJ is a wierd one , please read my following post and then respond otherwise you are just repeating the stuff that has already been said,
If they restrict all the titles based on actual history of the world then this game wouldn't be half as interesting, because then most of the characters in the game won't be able to create penny worth of titles............. at the moment I am creating Byzantine duchy titles with my Hindu leader, would someone please tell me how is this consistent with actual history of the world? So please stop using the real world history as an excuse to restrict KoJ to just Christians.........Hindus also like to take a crack at the region and want to be able to create higher level titles for the region...........
If they restrict all the titles based on actual history of the world then this game wouldn't be half as interesting, because then most of the characters in the game won't be able to create penny worth of titles............. at the moment I am creating Byzantine duchy titles with my Hindu leader, would someone please tell me how is this consistent with actual history of the world? So please stop using the real world history as an excuse to restrict KoJ to just Christians.........Hindus also like to take a crack at the region and want to be able to create higher level titles for the region...........
In my Muslim games, I always just give the duchies of Jerusalem to the king of Syria.
I'm beginning to think you can't actually understand English. To Muslims, Jerusalem was just a part of Syria, and only of minor importance religiously. It was Christians who attached enough importance to Jerusalem that they had it as the center of a Kingdom of its own. Duchies are purely administrative divisions, thus they don't have such restrictions.
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Word of god: the name is an artifact title. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArtifactTitle