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Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
Originally posted by Wilhelm of Prussia
Anyone knows when France was first called France? In our research often theres said that at first Carpenter king(987) there could be France called france. Some other texts told of 913.
other question: Was its name france or Kingdom of France or isnt it important?

thx

i think it become kingdome of France after the separation made on the treaty of Verdun. 856 i think

as for kingdom i think it is kingdom of france and not France but i'm not a specialist some knows that better than i and i think they will answer better than i :)
 

Crazy_Ivan80

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Re: Re: Kingdom of France, when?

Originally posted by Surcouf


i think it become kingdome of France after the separation made on the treaty of Verdun. 856 i think

843 AD.
 

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Dark Surcouf ne meurt jamais
Re: Re: Re: Kingdom of France, when?

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


843 AD.

oups sorry did not know it by heart :D
 

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The Verdun Treaty (843) is often seen as the birth of France : Charles the Bald's territory (called at this time "West Francia") was very homogenous and most of the people spoke a language deriving from Latin. But the King was only called "Rex Francorum" (King of the Franks) until Philippe Auguste (13th century). Afterwards he was called "King of France" but the official title was in fact "Very christian King".

I found that the term "Kingdom of France" appeared officially for the first time in 1154 during the reign of Louis VII. This King also adopted the fleur de-lys as the royal arms.
 
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i read both, german and french would call themselves very late german and french. For the germans is told that they call themselves not german until 1070, on the other hand theres told of "regnum teutonicorum"(the empire of the german) before 1000.

Verdun isnt the birth of France and it isnt the birth of Empire of Germany too although the "Deutsches Reich" praised 1000 year existing party in 1843 , which was stupid. Both empires, Francia Occidentalis(later france) and Francia Orientalis(later germany) wanted to reunion the great frankish empire. They didnt saw themselves as a german and french nation but as parts of great frankish kingdom.

Later at Meerssen 870 there happened that what france and germany will lead into several hundred years war, the top parts of Lotharingia went half half to Occidentalis and orientalis, but both sides wanna all of provinces of Lorraine(at that time lorraine is much greater than in eu2, provinces Lorraine, Alsace, Cologne, Luxembourg, Holland, Geldre.....) . But even at Meerssen there was nothing told of a different french and german countries.

In Ribemont 880 same as in verdun and Meerssen, they saw themselves as independent parts of frankish empire.

From 880 to 1000 there must be happend in Occidentalis something, that Kingdom of France was born.
For germany we researched the year 911, when Conrad I. rose to the throne after the last carolingian Louis the child died. I thought 987 because there died the last carolingian in occidentalis but im not sure about.
 

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well i am reading a book about brittany history from 843 to even 939,and france is called "francia occidentalis or "neustrie".
the kings are king of the franks and not king of france yet or king of the french.
 

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ok do you think its possible to make it "France" after the last carolingian died and Capet rose to the throne in 987?
In 987 only the house of capet is called the house of the french kings. the provinces of house of capet is ille de france and orleanis, perhaps Artois too... the rest are souveraign duchies some as tolouse, provence or anjou.
 

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I don't think that Hugues Capet's election was a so important event : the first four Capetian kings were powerless and weren't even able to control their vassals. But it was the first time that a "french" dynasty reigned over "Francia occidentalis" : for exemple it is told that Hugues Capet didn't understand german and needed a translator. With Louis VI the monarchy has become powerful enough and the independance from the Holy Roman Empire becomes a reality.
 

Pedro Cabral

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Anybody can translate for us?? :confused: :confused: :D ;)
 
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Petite traduction pour ces messieurs seulement francophone :) :


POST DE KORT" Je ne pense pas que l'election de Huges Capet ait été un evenement si important : les 4 permier capetiens étaient sans pouvoirs réels et ne controlaient pas leurs vassaux. Mais ce fut la première fois qu'une dynastie 'française" regnait sur la Francia Occidentalis : Par exemple il est dit que Huges Capet ne comprenait pas l'allemand et qu'il avait besoin d'un traducteur... Avec Louis VI la monarchie est devenue suffisament puissante et le pays a put réellement être independant du Saint Empire."


POST DE WILHELM"J'ai lu qu'Allemand et Français ne vont se designer eux-même allemand et françauis que très tardivement. Pour les Allemand il est dit qu'ils ne se dirent allemand qu'en 1070, alors qu'ils parlaient déja du Regnim teutonicorum ( l'empire des teutons/allemands ) dès 1000.

Verdun n'est pas la naissance de la France ou de l'empire allemand Bien que l'empire allemand revendiquait 1000 ans d'existence en 1843, ce qui est stupide ! Les deux pays, Francia Occidentalis ( la future France ) et la Francia Orientalis ( la future allemagne ) souhaitaient la réunification du grand empire franc. Ils ne se voyaient pas en temps que Français ou Allemand mais en temps que parts du grand royaume franc !

Après Meerssen en 870 il va advenir que les deux Francia vont se lancer dans plusieurs centaines d'années de guerres, la partie nord de la Lotharingie revenant moitié-moitié au deux royaumes, mais chacun souhaitera d'avoir toute la Lorraine ( a l'époque la lorraine est plus grande que dans EU2, elle inclue les provinces de lorraine, alsace, cologne, luxembourg.... ). Mais rien n'a été dit à Meersen des nations françaises et allemandes.

A Ribemont en 880, ce fut la même chose que precedemment, ils se voyaient comme des parties independantes de la nation franque...

De 880 à 1000 Il a dut ce passer quelquechose en Occidentalis qui a donné naissance au royame de France... Pour l'Allemagne on a proposé l'année 911, quand Conrad I est monté sur le trone aprs que le dernier des carolingiens, Louis l'enfant, mourrut. Je pensait a 987 car c'est la qu'est mort le dernier carolingien en Occidentalis mais je ne suis pas du tout sur."
 

Pedro Cabral

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me too ;) :D
 

unmerged(4720)

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le roi de France s'appelle roi des Francs avant Philippe-Auguste donc ils leur reste un semblant d'espoir de réunifier le pays un jour (comme les anglais étaient roi de France avant 1800 ;) :D )