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TheStijninator

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Will there ever be a Kingdom such as Lotharingia or Lorraine that can be formed by Burgundy or any nation of Rheinlander culture?
It is the only thing I think is missing for Burgundy and any nation in the region. Historically, Charles the Bold wanted to be raised to King, but he never got to it.
 

BBBD316

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It was an event in EU2 or 3
 

unmerged(584823)

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Yep, forming the kingdom of Lotharingia would be a good alternative for Burgundy, I hate seeing games in which it survives untill the XVIII° century, but a kingdom of lotharingia would be more plausible and interesting, indeed, moreover when we know that its formation was the goal of the dukes of Burgundy.
 

bizarcasm

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I don't particularly think Lotharingia is terribly plausable as a kingdom. It only existed from 855-959, had no particularly stable borders, and no defining features or culture. After it's division, nobody ever pretended the title. The Kingdom of Burgundy itself was at least nominally a title from the fourth century until 1378. Charles the Bold was to be crowned king of Burgundy by the Holy Roman Emperor, not Lotharingia. The Duchies of Lotharingia were entities that the Empire had spent centuries dividing and dismantling. The Emperor would have had no interest in allowing it to consolidate under an independent ruler. The de jure of the Kingdom of Burgundy on the other hand, was pretty much entirely controlled by France, and the Emperor would have had a strategic interest in seeing France lose territory

A more realistic idea would be to have an event or decision to "Form the Kingdom of Burgundy" which would give claims (or cores?) on the former de jure of the Kingdom of Burgundy in France, if your relations with the emperor are good enough.

I do think that a Rheinland unification would be nice however, but not for Burgundy.
 
Last edited:

Rey

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A more realistic idea would be to have an event or decision to "Form the Kingdom of Burgundy" which would give claims (or cores?) on the former de jure of the Kingdom of Burgundy in France, if your relations with the emperor are good enough.

This would be cool indeed.
 

Faarenough

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Yes my favorite nations needs a Kingdom to aim for. I like the idea of becoming friendly with the Emperor first to start the process. Maybe even get rid of the heir "problem" when you get upgraded. Maybe also a permanent or slowly degrading opinion malus against France once the Kingdom is formed?
 

unmerged(584823)

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I don't particularly think Lotharingia is terribly plausable as a kingdom. It only existed from 855-959, had no particularly stable borders, and no defining features or culture. After it's division, nobody ever pretended the title. The Kingdom of Burgundy itself was at least nominally a title from the fourth century until 1378. Charles the Bold was to be crowned king of Burgundy by the Holy Roman Emperor, not Lotharingia. The Duchies of Lotharingia were entities that the Empire had spent centuries dividing and dismantling. The Emperor would have had no interest in allowing it to consolidate under an independent ruler. The de jure of the Kingdom of Burgundy on the other hand, was pretty much entirely controlled by France, and the Emperor would have had a strategic interest in seeing France lose territory

A more realistic idea would be to have an event or decision to "Form the Kingdom of Burgundy" which would give claims (or cores?) on the former de jure of the Kingdom of Burgundy in France, if your relations with the emperor are good enough.

I do think that a Rheinland unification would be nice however, but not for Burgundy.

You should look at the Trier Conference of 1473, even if the kingdom offered to Charles the Bold was not name Lotharingia, it was, de facto, this kingdom. The ambitions of Philip the good, and then, Charles the bold, the last dukes of Burgundy, were indeed to form an unified kingdom with all their principalties. The fact is that, in EU III (edit: and EU IV too) , Burgundy is represented as one unified state, which was not at all what historically happened.
Imo, Burgundy should be showed, IG, as a lot of PU's between the duke of Burgundy and other opm principalties, and the goal of the burgundian player would be to unify all of these principalties inside the same state. Lotharingia is a name that could be changed anyway, the fact is that the dukes of Burgundy wanted to become the kings of an unified, and independant state, whatever its name is.
 
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bzahler

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I thought the emperor was going to crown Charles King of Brabant, not King of Burgundy. Since that least displease the French (Charles' french lands would remain de jure if not de facto French territory like the French duchy of Dauphaine in relation to HRE)
 

frolix42

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Can I add that Burgundy having the decision to form the Netherlands is silly? If Burgundy holds French lands, why would it change to a nation of a foriegn (Germanic) culture and voluntarily give up it's homelands. I know that there are gamisms at work, most of which involve the Burgundy and France player cooperating, but it's ahistorical to the extreme and I can't think of a historical parallel IRL to Burgundy giving up it's French Ambitions.

MAYBE if Burgundy owns no provinces in the French region, it should be able to form the Netherlands, but as is it's silly.
 

Gamerofthegame

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Can I add that Burgundy having the decision to form the Netherlands is silly? If Burgundy holds French lands, why would it change to a nation of a foriegn (Germanic) culture and voluntarily give up it's homelands. I know that there are gamisms at work, most of which involve the Burgundy and France player cooperating, but it's ahistorical to the extreme and I can't think of a historical parallel IRL to Burgundy giving up it's French Ambitions.

MAYBE if Burgundy owns no provinces in the French region, it should be able to form the Netherlands, but as is it's silly.

It's hand waving to allow a player to be able to play the Netherlands, don't look to deep into it.
 

frolix42

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It's hand waving to allow a player to be able to play the Netherlands, don't look to deep into it.

If a player wants to play as Netherlands they should start as one of the Flemish, Wallonian or Dutch OPMs. It makes sense that these guys should strive to achieve the Netherlands. It's no accomplishment to form NE as Burgundy.
 

unmerged(804580)

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Why would there need to be a separate Lotharingia? It already exists - it's called Lorraine in French. I usually play the game in German, and "Lorraine" is called "Lothringen" in German. Does it sound more familiar?... Conquering Lorraine and TAG switching to Lorraine as Burgundy.. hmm. I honestly don't see the point.

Play Lorraine. It exists in default 1444 campaign, under personal union with Provence. It is also an HRE member state although Provence isn't. Break that PU with Provence and move your way up, reconquer Burgundy. It'd be more rewarding since it'd be much harder than just clicking a button when you have most of it anyways.

After all, why is it so weird if Burgundy lived on, but not if some titular long-forgotten kingdom with little national identity or culture to speak of gets recreated again?
 
Last edited:

JKNUBZ

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A more realistic idea would be to have an event or decision to "Form the Kingdom of Burgundy" which would give claims (or cores?) on the former de jure of the Kingdom of Burgundy in France, if your relations with the emperor are good enough.

+1 to this.

Frankly, I'd still be happy if all it did was disable the decisions to form France and the Netherlands, since I hate having those at the top of my list for half the game.
 

Rey

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What about a decision to form the Kingdom of Arles, if Burgundy expands south?

752px-Map_Kingdom_Arelat_EN.png