King succeeding to a duchy in a different kingdom.

[Pope Pius V]

So I was playing the demo as Boleslaw the Bold. I was able to arrange a marriage with Matilda di Canossa. Both the Kingdom of Poland and all her titles had Agnatic-Cognatic Gavelkind. The game ended after 20 years so I didn't get to see what would happen when their son would succeed.

Does anyone know what would happen? Would the Duchy of Toscana become a part of the King of Poland? Or would the new King also be a vassal to the Kaiser as well as being sovereign in his own right?

I just started playing the demo, so I'm still getting used to everything.

 

[Boogeyman]

So I was playing the demo as Boleslaw the Bold. I was able to arrange a marriage with Matilda di Canossa. Both the Kingdom of Poland and all her titles had Agnatic-Cognatic Gavelkind. The game ended after 20 years so I didn't get to see what would happen when their son would succeed.

Does anyone know what would happen? Would the Duchy of Toscana become a part of the King of Poland? Or would the new King also be a vassal to the Kaiser as well as being sovereign in his own right?

I just started playing the demo, so I'm still getting used to everything.

I think it goes to independent Poland as that will be his main title, which is not under vassalage. Most likely HRE wouldn't even want a vassal so powerful.

 

[Captain Gars]

If whoever inherited the Kingdom of Poland also inherited the Duchy of Toscana, it would leave HRE and be part of Poland. But if you succession meant that one child inherited the Kingdom and another the Duchy - and that character didn't already hold a duchy - he would leave Poland and rule Toscana as a HRE vassal.

 

[Hamanu]

A pity that dual vassalage couldn't be implemented. The dukes of Burgundy and Lotharingia frequently played this game between two sovereigns, HRE and France.

 

[Pope Pius V]

A pity that dual vassalage couldn't be implemented. The dukes of Burgundy and Lotharingia frequently played this game between two sovereigns, HRE and France.

That would be sweet but extremely complex. I guess real life feudalism got complicated.

 

[Nick B II]

The general answer to this question is complicated. But the specific example makes it a lot simpler. First the complicated bit.

The Duchy of Toscana would appear on the map as part of Poland. All taxes, levies, etc. would go to the King of Poland. Since Toscana is part of the Kingdom of Italy, the King-Duke would be able to vote on certain Italian law-changes, successors to the King of Italy if Italy was Elective, and generally be involved in Italian politics in a way that was impossible before he inherited. It's similar to the situation of Normandy in France. His Italian vassals follow Italian law, so it's entirely possible he could have no Crown Authority in Poland, and thus no right to do anything, but have the right to revoke titles at will in Italy because they have high Crown Authority. This is all a pretty good simulation of the relationship between the English King-Dukes ofEngland-Normandy and the Kings of France.

Now the simple bit:
There is no Kingdom of Italy in 1066. Italy is not de jure part of the HRE. Which means there's nothing to vote on. Italian Crown Laws are what they are, and nobody has the authority to change them. There's no throne so you can't have an election electing somebody to it. Your Italian territories will act exactly like a Lithuanian Duchy you conquer on a northern Crusade.

I can't tell you whether these Duchies will follow your laws, or the laws of their official, uncreated, Kingdoms. The latter means no Crown Authority, virtually no tax money, no ability to take anything away from Nobles, no ability to change your military commanders, etc. The former means you'll have the same rights as you do in Poland. The preview apparently switched between the two methods, and I don;t have access to the demo myself (no Mac version) to try it out.

Nick

 

[Tantalus]

So for Gavelkind-succession, if I have a King title and duke titles both inside and outside the de jure Kingdom, my primary heir keeps those brothers as vassals who get internal dukedoms, but the outside duke titles are lost if the primary heir does not get them?
What happens if a younger brother receives both an internal and an external duke title? And more generally, if a person inherits 2 dukedoms from different kingdoms, whose vassal is he going to be?

 

[Pope Pius V]

So for Gavelkind-succession, if I have a King title and duke titles both inside and outside the de jure Kingdom, my primary heir keeps those brothers as vassals who get internal dukedoms, but the outside duke titles are lost if the primary heir does not get them?
What happens if a younger brother receives both an internal and an external duke title? And more generally, if a person inherits 2 dukedoms from different kingdoms, whose vassal is he going to be?

Is this a real situation you have encountered in the demo? Or is this a completely hypothetical situation.

Sounds a little insane. I want to implement primogeniture as fast as possible, but it is quite difficult in CK2

 

[3inar]

If whoever inherited the Kingdom of Poland also inherited the Duchy of Toscana, it would leave HRE and be part of Poland. But if you succession meant that one child inherited the Kingdom and another the Duchy - and that character didn't already hold a duchy - he would leave Poland and rule Toscana as a HRE vassal.

A folow upp question to this, wold the Emperor of the HRE gett some kind of casus belli on the King of poland so he can retake his former vassal provinces?

 

[Tantalus]

Is this a real situation you have encountered in the demo? Or is this a completely hypothetical situation.

Sounds a little insane. I want to implement primogeniture as fast as possible, but it is quite difficult in CK2

Well, playing as William the Conquorer, I was King of England, Duke of Anjou and Duke of Normandy, with the various english Dukedoms formable, and 3 sons. I didn't play long enough to see the result of inheriting, but I was wondering whether I should hand out Anjou and Normandy to the eldest to avoid losing them to France.

 

[Wezqu]

A folow upp question to this, wold the Emperor of the HRE gett some kind of casus belli on the King of poland so he can retake his former vassal provinces?

Not if its not inside the de jure Holy Roman Empire. As Italy is not he will not get any cb's. If it would be for example Duchy of Saxony then he would as the area is part of the de jure HRE.

 

[Bertouch]

That would be sweet but extremely complex. I guess real life feudalism got complicated.

There were occasional instances of Ruler A owing fealty to Ruler B, while Ruler B owed fealty to Ruler A at the same time under another series of titles. (Entirely secular, and without taking the sacred sphere into consideration.) I'd have to pull out a few books to find examples, but in ordinary circumstances whomever had the most power usually got the fealty and the upper hand.

 

[3inar]

Not if its not inside the de jure Holy Roman Empire. As Italy is not he will not get any cb's. If it would be for example Duchy of Saxony then he would as the area is part of the de jure HRE.

Cool tnx for the quick answer!

 

[Subcomandante]

And what happens if Toscana is under a high or absolute crown authority Italy kingdom? Then Toscana could not leave Italy like that, could not be inherited away. Who would get the Duchy then?

 

[Nick B II]

And what happens if Toscana is under a high or absolute crown authority Italy kingdom? Then Toscana could not leave Italy like that, could not be inherited away. Who would get the Duchy then?

Presumably all heirs who'd take it out of the Kingdom would be dead for inheritance purposes. So the first guy in Toscana's succession who was landless or a Count would inherit the Duchy. From then on the new Duke of Toscana would be dead for the purposes of inheriting anything in Poland.

But that's just an educated guess. To really find out somebody who can mod would have to mod Italian Crown Authority as high as possible, marry Mathilda, and play until he had an heir. Then he'd have to save, force-kill Matilda (using either CK2'e equivalent of the 'die' cheat, or cheating to fire an event that kills her), force-kill kill himself (same method), and find out what happens. Then he'd have to reload and do things in the opposite order.

Nick

 

[siis]

Presumably all heirs who'd take it out of the Kingdom would be dead for inheritance purposes. So the first guy in Toscana's succession who was landless or a Count would inherit the Duchy. From then on the new Duke of Toscana would be dead for the purposes of inheriting anything in Poland.

But that's just an educated guess. To really find out somebody who can mod would have to mod Italian Crown Authority as high as possible, marry Mathilda, and play until he had an heir. Then he'd have to save, force-kill Matilda (using either CK2'e equivalent of the 'die' cheat, or cheating to fire an event that kills her), force-kill kill himself (same method), and find out what happens. Then he'd have to reload and do things in the opposite order.

Nick

Or we ask the DEVs here.