'King of Germany' or 'King of the Romans'?

[Nick B II]

He just wanted to rename "King of Germany" with "King of the Romans" which is unquestionably
more historical if I get it right. It's just one click in the textfiles. Nothing gameplay related.

The only thing in his post that would affect gameplay is that the emperor shouldn't be named
emperor untill his coronation in rome. This I do fear however is hard to implement. We'll see
when the final game is out I guess how hard it is to implement/mod in.

You aren't understanding how the game works. The Kingdom of Germany cannot be created by the Imperial dynasty. It can be created by a rebellious Duke who manages to unite Saxony, Bavaria, etc. It can also be created by Muslim Jihadists, French invaders, or any other completely ahistorical group that takes charge of 50% of the country.

Which means it's the opposite of the Kingdom of the Romans, which could only be used by the Imperial heir.

Nick

 

[Ruwaard]

You aren't understanding how the game works. The Kingdom of Germany cannot be created by the Imperial dynasty. It can be created by a rebellious Duke who manages to unite Saxony, Bavaria, etc. It can also be created by Muslim Jihadists, French invaders, or any other completely ahistorical group that takes charge of 50% of the country.

Which means it's the opposite of the Kingdom of the Romans, which could only be used by the Imperial heir.

Nick

I'm fine with that, but I'm less sure about excluding emperor-tier characters from creating any king titles (some restrictions would IMHO still be needed). You're also right that until Maximilian I of Habsburg got Papal approval to use the imperial title, as emperor-elect, before an imperial coronation; the king of the Romans was emperor-elect, either as heir or as ruler before the imperial coronation.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

You can create the Kingdom of Germany indirectly for your heir. Give him >50% of the land needed to create the title, and make sure he has the money and piety (if needed) to make the kingdom. He should then create the title.

Once he does this, then he has the title, should still be your vassal, and when you die, hopefully he will be sufficiently powerful (as a King) to take the election.

 

[Nick B II]

I'm fine with that, but I'm less sure about excluding emperor-tier characters from creating any king titles (some restrictions would IMHO still be needed). You're also right that until Maximilian I of Habsburg got Papal approval to use the imperial title, as emperor-elect, before an imperial coronation; the king of the Romans was emperor-elect, either as heir or as ruler before the imperial coronation.

I'm not too happy with that restriction myself. I hope it can be modded out. Making people King, or de facto King, of various bits of his realm was something the Emperors did. It would be nice if CK2 replicated this behavior.

But the devs have decided otherwise, which means changing Germany's name makes no sense in-game.

Nick

 

[Jia Xu]

I'm fine with that, but I'm less sure about excluding emperor-tier characters from creating any king titles (some restrictions would IMHO still be needed). You're also right that until Maximilian I of Habsburg got Papal approval to use the imperial title, as emperor-elect, before an imperial coronation; the king of the Romans was emperor-elect, either as heir or as ruler before the imperial coronation.

I don't like it either, but the restriction is there for a very good reason. As mentioned earlier, all of Bohemia only gets one vote because the Bohemian dukes are not direct vassals of the Emperor. If you could create king titles, you could really break electoral succession within the empire. Create the kingdom of Germany, give it to the heir of your choice, presumably taking all of the Germany dukes with him. Now your heir is the only elector in Germany. See the issue now?

 

[Nick B II]

One of the nice things about the DLC system is that it's possible the issues with Imperial elections could be dealt with for like $10, which would mean this particular inelegant design could be scrapped.

Nick

 

[Jia Xu]

One of the nice things about the DLC system is that it's possible the issues with Imperial elections could be dealt with for like $10, which would mean this particular inelegant design could be scrapped. Nick

I'm with you. EU3 has a special little system just for the HRE. CK2 might need something similar, a special mechanic just for the HRE to have the empire working with minimal eyebrows raised. It's definitely a good candidate for DLC, IMO.

 

[tajerio]

I'm with you. EU3 has a special little system just for the HRE. CK2 might need something similar, a special mechanic just for the HRE to have the empire working with minimal eyebrows raised. It's definitely a good candidate for DLC, IMO.

Behind playable non-Christians, having unique structures for either or both of the Roman Empires seems to crop up most frequently as something people wish were in the game, so I'd be surprised if we didn't eventually see a DLC for this.

 

[Nuril]

I'm with you. EU3 has a special little system just for the HRE. CK2 might need something similar, a special mechanic just for the HRE to have the empire working with minimal eyebrows raised. It's definitely a good candidate for DLC, IMO.

After Playable Pagans etc. it could be nice to have an "Imperial"-DLC where it focuses on new features for Byzantium and the HRE with properly game-changing content.

 

[pfried]

Are titular kingdoms allowed to change their succession laws? If so, would adding a titular Roman kingdom work?

 

[Joel M Bridge]

what drive me nut historan is say it not Byzantium is the rome empire. reason constantine build it in first places, was because by time he was sole ruler of empire rome least 50 odd year have been a politcal backwater, thanks to Emperor Diocletian. So when rome got sack second time sadly entire city was not big deal, hell Western Emperor court was in Ravenna untill western Empire fell.

 

[Jia Xu]

Are titular kingdoms allowed to change their succession laws? If so, would adding a titular Roman kingdom work?

I don't think titular titles have laws. And no, it wouldn't work anyway. Simply put, it would be very difficult to ensure that the title stays with the character you think is the "heir." Titular titles are not honour titles. Being a titular king means you're a king, except you have no crown laws or de-jure territory. You could give it to your heir, but then the King of England buys an invasion CB, wins the title in a war, and now the King of the Romans rules from London???

 

[the_legion]

and now the King of the Romans rules from London???

Ever heard of Richard of Cornwall? He became king of the romans in 1257. So an "english"
King of the romans isn't that weird. What the game simply cannot handle is the soft connection
between the titles King of the Romans ("Germany") and the Emperor-Title. So they decided to
leave out the first title at all. Gamedesign decission. Doesn't mean that I am not allowed to
think of possibilities to include this title without screwing up gameplay.

 

[Jia Xu]

Ever heard of Richard of Cornwall? He became king of the romans in 1257. So an "english"
King of the romans isn't that weird. What the game simply cannot handle is the soft connection
between the titles King of the Romans ("Germany") and the Emperor-Title. So they decided to
leave out the first title at all. Gamedesign decission. Doesn't mean that I am not allowed to
think of possibilities to include this title without screwing up gameplay.

Did he invade Germany to get it and did he keep the title as his own possession passing it to his own heirs in Cornwall? No? Oh, alright then. Because that is how titles work in CK2. You can not create a titular title and expect it to work like an honour title. It will follow the rules of regular titles.

 

[ShiaoPi]

Did he invade Germany to get it and did he keep the title as his own possession passing it to his own heirs in Cornwall? No? Oh, alright then. Because that is how titles work in CK2. You can not create a titular title and expect it to work like an honour title. It will follow the rules of regular titles.

He tried to enforce his claim and went on several campaigns in Germany to get acknowledged but he did not meet much success. And as the title was elective after he died the German electors just chose someone else. Btw that time is also called "Interregnum" in Germany as the Empire had no "real" (and by that I mean universally acknowledged and sufficiently strong enough to enforce loyalty) King during that time until the election of Rudolf von Habsburg

 

[PdoxLP]

But that's basically the same as having a "Kingdom of France" and a "Kingdom of West Francia" at the same time.
The emperor was King of the Romans which is basically the same thing as Germany. So I cannot imagine any circumstances under which
a "King of the Romans"(implying that is included in Empire title) and a "King of Germany" could coexist in the same realm
but this could happen ingame when a vassal forms the fictional Kingdom of Germany.

The Kingdom of West Francia and the Kingdom of France are the same thing but during different time periods. While the Kingdom of Germany and The Holy Roman Empire ARE different things.

As represented in the game the Kingdom of Germany is an a-historical entity. Like I said, it's basically there in the case the Empire completely implodes or foreigners (the French, Poles, Scandinavians, etc) annex large parts of Germany. Any historical facts and conventions can be ignored for this title, because the only reason it's there is for gameplay purposes. And I have never seen it formed in my 60+ hours played.

 

[Saulot]

After Playable Pagans etc. it could be nice to have an "Imperial"-DLC where it focuses on new features for Byzantium and the HRE with properly game-changing content.

Yes, the imperial DLC would be a good improvement for the game and could potentially add some very interesting features. I would love to see it at some point.

 

[Onedreamer]

I just have a quick question about the CKII title of the monarch who rules the lands which are now part of Germany. In the middle ages there was no such thing as a 'king of Germany' - the legitimate monarch of that region was known as the rex Romanorum or Roemscher kung/Rómischer koenîg (depending on which regional variant of Middle High German the source is written in). I study the high/late medieval Holy Roman Empire, and have never come across a single source referring to a 'king of Germany'. Does CKII reflect this, or does it repeat CK's ahistorical title 'king of Germany'? (IIRC in the 1066 scenario Heinrich von Franken began with the titles 'king of Germany, Burgundy, and Italy').

Too bad that the Byzantines also called themselves Romans. We are playing the game by a neutral stance, we are neither Germanic Roman Emperors nor Greek Roman Emperors hence we can call them Germany and Byzantium and not give a damn how they called themselves.

 

[Ruwaard]

I'm not too happy with that restriction myself. I hope it can be modded out. Making people King, or de facto King, of various bits of his realm was something the Emperors did. It would be nice if CK2 replicated this behavior.

But the devs have decided otherwise, which means changing Germany's name makes no sense in-game.

Nick

I don't like it either, but the restriction is there for a very good reason. As mentioned earlier, all of Bohemia only gets one vote because the Bohemian dukes are not direct vassals of the Emperor. If you could create king titles, you could really break electoral succession within the empire. Create the kingdom of Germany, give it to the heir of your choice, presumably taking all of the Germany dukes with him. Now your heir is the only elector in Germany. See the issue now?

Since in CK 2 the 'in game de jure border of the HRE' only includes the German Kingdom (Lotharingia)and Bohemia, it wouldn't break the electoral succession that much; in fact IMHO the only restriction really needed for the HRE would be the emperor being unable to create the German Kingdom. Creating the kingdom of Bohemia as emperor should only be possible as duke of Bohemia and Moravia, however OTOH creating yourself king as the emperor in the empire might not be very popular. So maybe the restriction should also apply to the entire 'de jure empire' and Italy and Burgundy, however IMHO restrictions outside these regions shouldn't be needed. For the ERE the restriction should apply for kingdoms within the 'de jure borders' of the ERE.

 

[Onedreamer]

No, you can not. As was previously mentioned, the Kingdom of Germany can not be created by the Emperor. Again, it is not an honour title in the game. It reflects real authority over a real kingdom should Germany be taken away from the Emperor.

ok but what prevents an hypothetical King of Germany to be elected as Emperor?