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King_Duncan

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I just have a quick question about the CKII title of the monarch who rules the lands which are now part of Germany. In the middle ages there was no such thing as a 'king of Germany' - the legitimate monarch of that region was known as the rex Romanorum or Roemscher kung/Rómischer koenîg (depending on which regional variant of Middle High German the source is written in). I study the high/late medieval Holy Roman Empire, and have never come across a single source referring to a 'king of Germany'. Does CKII reflect this, or does it repeat CK's ahistorical title 'king of Germany'? (IIRC in the 1066 scenario Heinrich von Franken began with the titles 'king of Germany, Burgundy, and Italy').

On a side note, not all kings of the Romans were emperors. Although there were bouts of quasi-hereditary rule under the Ottonians and Hohenstaufen, you were generally elected king of the Romans by German princes (formalised into the seven Kurfürsten by the Golden Bull of 1356), and crowned in the Rhineland (sometimes in Mainz, Frankfurt, or Bonn, but usually in Aachen). In order to become Holy Roman Empire you needed to be crowned by the pope in Italy (and, as an aside, in order to become king of Lombardy you needed to receive the Iron Crown, usually in Milan). Thus Frederick II of Hohenstaufen was king of the Romans from 1212, but only became HRE with his papal coronation in 1220. Similarly, Charles IV of Luxemburg was elected and crowned king of the Romans in 1346, but did not receive the Imperial crown until his Italian expedition of 1355. Frederick III of Habsburg (IV of the Romans) had the longest gap - he was elected in 1440, crowned rex Romanorum in 1442, yet only became Holy Roman Emperor when he finally visited Rome in 1452. Many important kings of the Romans - Conrad III of Hohenstaufen, Rudolf I of Habsburg, and Wenceslas of Luxemburg, amongst others - were never Holy Roman Emperors.

It would be quite hard to implement the king of the Romans/HRE gap in CKII, though a DLC which modelled it would be wonderful (pretty please Paradox? :)). However, getting the king of the Romans's title right isn't difficult, so I'd be grateful to hear from someone who's previewed the game about whether this is the case.
 

Peuri

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There is an emperor title (5th tier title [barons, counts, dukes, kings, emperors]) for the Holy Roman Empire which starts elective (dukes and kings in the de jure area of HRE can vote) and a king of Germany title which isn't created at beginning of the game (1066 atleast). The emperor can't create the title of king of Germany. There is no king of the Romans title, that I know of.
 

yourworstnightm

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As I understand there are the Holy Roman Empire, which is an emperor title, and is elective in 1066. The de jure empire is pretty much Germany and Bohemia, but the empire start out with Italy and Burgundy too, making the Italian and Burgundian vassals outside the empire's de jure area. Then there are the three de jure kingdoms of Germany, Italy and Burgundy that are unclaimed in the beginning. The emperor himself is unable to create kingdom titles (that way he can't beat the duke of Bohemia to create the kingdom of Bohemia).
 

the_legion

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The emperor himself is unable to create kingdom titles
This is new and very disappointing to me. No Kingdom of Jerusalem founding possible?
Do I have to grant all the lands to a vassal waiting untill he creates and then imprison
him to get King of Jerusalem as Emperor?
The better sollution for the Bohemia situation would be to prevent everyone with
non-slavic culture to form the Kingdom of Bohemia imho ...

To the OP:
I agree 100%, there was only a king of the romans but I gave up that paradox would introduce it.
We can (and will certainly) mod it in with one little text-change in the files. Oh, and a little fun fact-
The pope did call the roman kings sometimes "Rex Teutonicorum" but only as a medieval form
of trolling.
The Emperor thing is also true but fact is that every "german" king saw himself as emperor and it's hard
to make a title "currently not in use" untill the formal coronation in rome took place ingame. This is part of the
abstraction a game has to make sadly (Programming needed for special situation > gameplay gains).
 

Callendor

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I just have a quick question about the CKII title of the monarch who rules the lands which are now part of Germany. In the middle ages there was no such thing as a 'king of Germany' - the legitimate monarch of that region was known as the rex Romanorum or Roemscher kung/Rómischer koenîg (depending on which regional variant of Middle High German the source is written in). I study the high/late medieval Holy Roman Empire, and have never come across a single source referring to a 'king of Germany'. Does CKII reflect this, or does it repeat CK's ahistorical title 'king of Germany'? (IIRC in the 1066 scenario Heinrich von Franken began with the titles 'king of Germany, Burgundy, and Italy').

On a side note, not all kings of the Romans were emperors. Although there were bouts of quasi-hereditary rule under the Ottonians and Hohenstaufen, you were generally elected king of the Romans by German princes (formalised into the seven Kurfürsten by the Golden Bull of 1356), and crowned in the Rhineland (sometimes in Mainz, Frankfurt, or Bonn, but usually in Aachen). In order to become Holy Roman Empire you needed to be crowned by the pope in Italy (and, as an aside, in order to become king of Lombardy you needed to receive the Iron Crown, usually in Milan). Thus Frederick II of Hohenstaufen was king of the Romans from 1212, but only became HRE with his papal coronation in 1220. Similarly, Charles IV of Luxemburg was elected and crowned king of the Romans in 1346, but did not receive the Imperial crown until his Italian expedition of 1355. Frederick III of Habsburg (IV of the Romans) had the longest gap - he was elected in 1440, crowned rex Romanorum in 1442, yet only became Holy Roman Emperor when he finally visited Rome in 1452. Many important kings of the Romans - Conrad III of Hohenstaufen, Rudolf I of Habsburg, and Wenceslas of Luxemburg, amongst others - were never Holy Roman Emperors.

It would be quite hard to implement the king of the Romans/HRE gap in CKII, though a DLC which modelled it would be wonderful (pretty please Paradox? :)). However, getting the king of the Romans's title right isn't difficult, so I'd be grateful to hear from someone who's previewed the game about whether this is the case.

I was surprised, too, by the "kingdom of Germany" as there was no such thing.
 

Jia Xu

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I was surprised, too, by the "kingdom of Germany" as there was no such thing.

Which doesn't really matter. The way the game works is that every province has to belong to a county, a duchy, and a kingdom. The provinces in Germany have to belong to a kingdom. This can not be changed. If you don't have them belonging to a kingdom of Germany, then they have to belong to a different kingdom. Would you demote the HRE from empire status to kingdom status for this purpose? Also, the "kingdom of Germany" isn't for the HRE. Emperors can't create it, so really, it's only for someone who is outside of the HRE and conquers Germany, taking it away from the emperor.
 

the_legion

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He just wanted to rename "King of Germany" with "King of the Romans" which is unquestionably
more historical if I get it right. It's just one click in the textfiles. Nothing gameplay related.

The only thing in his post that would affect gameplay is that the emperor shouldn't be named
emperor untill his coronation in rome. This I do fear however is hard to implement. We'll see
when the final game is out I guess how hard it is to implement/mod in.
 

Jia Xu

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He just wanted to rename "King of Germany" with "King of the Romans" which is unquestionably
more historical if I get it right. It's just one click in the textfiles. Nothing gameplay related.

It is gameplay related though. :p

The Kingdom of Germany can't be created by the Emperor. You can certainly mess with the localization files and call it "the Kingdom of the Romans" if you please, but that title still will not have any kind of function as it did in history. The game's Kingdom of Germany is really for someone who takes Germany away from the Emperor and it functions as a real kingdom, with its own crown laws. Again, every province has to belong to a real kingdom.
 

Jia Xu

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So you say the Emperor does NOT allready start out as King of "Germany"? Seems even more weird to me ...

Right, at the start of the game, the Emperor is not "King of Germany." Like I said, it's not a title for the Emperor. Germany is also a de-jure part of the Holy Roman Empire which means you can assert legal authority over Germany with the imperial title as well. King of Germany is a title for someone who has established hegemony over Germany but isn't the Emperor. Hypothetically, let's say something wildly crazy happens and Al-Andalus conquers Germany. You wouldn't want to see the Cordoban Caliph become Holy Roman Emperor would you? Well, he doesn't have to. He and anyone else outside of the empire who conquers Germany can adopt a non-imperial title for the area in "King of Germany." See what I mean now?
 

Zarine

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So you say the Emperor does NOT allready start out as King of "Germany"? Seems even more weird to me ...

As you said, this title didn't even exist :)

Let just say that the title of Emperor of the HRE is from being king of the romans to being crowned emperor...

Beside, there can be a king of Germany and an emperor of the HRE at the same time and not being the same person.
 

Duke of Bavaria

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So can i as Emperor crown my son as King of Germany as it was historical usus? Thats the real question for me here. Would really be neat and i was a little disappointed when i first read in thos thread it wouldnt be possible. Well but i also see this as a gamebalance issue if it would be possible as the crowning of the hier was only established later and in a time dynasty had a strong grip on the Emperor title. Maybe its good it isnt possible because you could have an Emperor and a "German" King from different dynasties then, and it would look all weird. Crowning the heir probably is more a post-renaissance thing maybe after all.
 

Jia Xu

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So can i as Emperor crown my son as King of Germany as it was historical usus? Thats the real question for me here. Would really be neat and i was a little disappointed when i first read in thos thread it wouldnt be possible.

No, you can not. As was previously mentioned, the Kingdom of Germany can not be created by the Emperor. Again, it is not an honour title in the game. It reflects real authority over a real kingdom should Germany be taken away from the Emperor.
 

unmerged(299293)

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Well, if my memory is correct (has been awhile since I had to study Holy Roman Empire), Otto the Great gave himself that title after conquering most of Italy. Before then, he called himself the King of Germany and King of Italy before consolidating the titles. It would make sense that the titles in Crusader Kings II would be interchangeable as well.
 

Sir Garnet

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Well, Holy Roman Emperor is the most recognizable title in English (though Latin is more stylish and need not be localized) and the political organization is already complex enough.

Papal coronation might be handled with an event and appropriate relationship, piety, prestige, and other prerequisites and effects.
 

Callendor

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Papal coronation might be handled with an event and appropriate relationship, piety, prestige, and other prerequisites and effects.

Exactly. The Imperial-Papel relationship was a very important issue in the middle ages. It should be widely expanded. (*cough* developers *cough*).
 

the_legion

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It's basically there for a-historical implosions of the Empire or a very, very strong vassal of the Empire.
But that's basically the same as having a "Kingdom of France" and a "Kingdom of West Francia" at the same time.
The emperor was King of the Romans which is basically the same thing as Germany. So I cannot imagine any circumstances under which
a "King of the Romans"(implying that is included in Empire title) and a "King of Germany" could coexist in the same realm
but this could happen ingame when a vassal forms the fictional Kingdom of Germany.

Is it possible to mod a "succession law" where a title seizes to exist and reasign it by event according
to how the empire-election went? Maybe that's the way I will mod it for me, hope the demo will show if it can be done.
I'm not saying it should be in the original game but I'll mod it for sure ^-^
 

Jia Xu

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But that's basically the same as having a "Kingdom of France" and a "Kingdom of West Francia" at the same time.
The emperor was King of the Romans which is basically the same thing as Germany. So I cannot imagine any circumstances under which a "King of the Romans"(implying that is included in Empire title) and a "King of Germany" could coexist in the same realm but this could happen ingame when a vassal forms the fictional Kingdom of Germany.

Again, every province in the game MUST be attached to a kingdom level title. Now if you don't want German provinces attached to Germany, what kingdom level title do you think they should be attached to instead?


Is it possible to mod a "succession law" where a title seizes to exist and reasign it by event according to how the empire-election went?

No. I believe one of the developers said last year that new laws can not be added through modding.