King Level Vassals

[unmerged(600321)]

When you have an empire of at least 1000 holdings, or even 2000+ holdings, do you bother with King level vassals? I personally don't because I like to keep my vassals weak. This, however, requires constantly dealing with countless dukes and rapidly slows down gameplay after around the 1200s and more so after 1300s when often over half the map belongs to my empire. I have never actually tried giving my vassals Kingdoms, but should I do so after I have 15+ Kingdoms? I mean a rebellious King is much less powerful when compared to a 1000+ holding Empire than a rebillious Duke is to a 1 Kingdom King.

Those of you who have given out Kingdoms to vassals, how does it usually turn out for you?

 

[Rozmarzony]

Usually, giant vassals never rebell, because it's easier to keep them calm.
You know, it's easier to find ambitious out of 50 to 500... and it's the same with killing them. For dukes, it takes you a lot more plots.

 

[Mutineer]

There lots of convinience of having vassals kings. 3 clicks and 20K army in boat ready to go whenever you want.

But even gameplay wize, I give small/medium kingdoms out early, easier to keep them happy and can be used as additional source of income (vassal of my vassal can be arested with no risk and ransomed. Fact he hate me does not matter.)

 

[unmerged(600321)]

I tried it out in my latest Roman Empire game (~1.1k holdings). The vassal management is easier, but I lost about half my income. Instead of making 250+ a month, I am now making like 140. I'll post an update later and see if less gifting will make up for it, but I might have to rely less on mercs and retinues since when my retinues fight I now have negative income (before I had barely positive income even when retinues were all recruiting at maximum with ~60k cataphracts in retinues).

Will post an update later.

 

[Mutineer]

You know, I one's have income of 200+ just from my personal holdings. Fortune buiding emperor with good wife had holding limit of 15 in gavekin. 15 counties and buiding additional cities in coastal provinces, put genious majors on them - your income going try the roof.

Other way my king/bishop of scotland was giving me 60 income. I had vassal taxes at 0, still do.

 

[TheTedinator]

It does make raising levies easier, especially of you give each kingdom a county in the main region you want to raise troops.

 

[unmerged(600321)]

I almost never use levies anymore other than in major fights. For example, levies are useful to take on doomstacks and the like. But other than for rebel stomping (peasant rebellions) or emergency situations, I rarely use levies (other than ship levies). The retinue system makes levies not so important after the early game, other than for major battles.

I am liking the quicker pace of the game when I hand out Kingdoms, but the lessened income from feudal taxes hurts. Even with a better built economy (e.g. stacking cities), I would still benefit from the extra cash. With King tier vassals, I get a lot less cash which means I have to stop my aggressive campaigning for a few years every now and then to restock some cash. From an effectiveness standpoint, I think not giving out Kingdoms is better, but from a real life time efficiency standpoint it makes the game go much quicker. Being able to avoid faction based issues makes the game more fun, even if it means making less money off feudal taxes.

A screenshot of my latest game is provided below. Just killing time with expansions till the Timurids hit next.

 

[Ravenous.BE]

A screenshot of my latest game is provided below. Just killing time with expansions till the Timurids hit next.

Dem borders... 10/10, would usurp.

 

[hjarg]

I use mixed system

If i have an Empire, then i usually split the realm into two- King level vassals for about 2/3 of the lands and Duke-based vassals for another 1/3. Amongst the Dukes are plenty merchant republics that give me additional income, so not much need for feudal taxes.
As for levies, same with random83- only in emergencies. Personal levies and retinues will be more then sufficient during normal war, vassals are needed when shit really hits the fan.

 

[grumphie]

depends. i.e. when playing as the byzantine empire im not going to make taurica a king level vassel, as theyre still fairly easy to keep in line. mali on the other hand i a pain to handle and becomes a king level, reducing the needed vassels to please. basicly, handing out king titles is only worth it if the resulting esier vassel managment is more important than the lost cash n troops.

especially late game handing them out gets better and better, as your personal levies and retinue cap will likely have risen to the point wher eoyu can just smash everyone with personal troops and onyl need some ships to help transporting them.

 

[Tempestra]

A screenshot of my latest game is provided below. Just killing time with expansions till the Timurids hit next.

I like how you made your post seem on topic and showing off your e-peen just incidental.

 

[shypixel]

I have found that in my big empire games, you can alleviate some of the cash lost by giving out kingdom titles by creating duke level republic vassals, as someone mentioned earlier.

To this I would add that having Republic duchies in your King level vassal's territory will help keep him busy, as well as ensuring that he has income of his own to build.

I guess I don't really ascribe to the whole "Keep em Weak" theory of vassal management. I seem to have a lot of success letting them grow strong, but making sure they have their own problems to deal with to keep them busy until you call their levies. (appointing counts/barons that will be a hassle to them, making the primary duchies in his kingdom into republics).

Another thing I do is change any king title's succession law to gavelkind before handing it out. It help to prevent the consolidation of titles you often see among powerful vassals, at least for the first 10 years.

 

[onyxja]

It is quite fun being a vassal of a king under a emperor, otherwise it is a good way of reducing micromanagement and making the vassals more scary since the game is otherwise pretty easy.

 

[unmerged(600321)]

This is probably a silly question, but how do I make duchies into "republics." I have seen a few, but I never knew we could make one.

 

[Talq]

Give the county/duchy title to a mayor.