Killed or captured generals

[Augustus93]

At least for events they already found a splendid solution. Previously you could disband the entire Wehrmacht and still get the Czechs to hand over their entire country. Now the a.i. will check your strength instead of just bending over via dice-roll.

Yeah because that sounds so good. Why should the AI be able to check how many troops I have totally, may I remind you that historically Germany was not so strong at the time as they made the Allies believe through propaganda and impressive military parades. They could maybe check how many troops I have on the border but there is no reason why they should be able to know how many troops I have in reserve some provinces behind the border. And that as Germany you could disband your entire military is not a valid point as I have never seen happen the AI do ever (in fact the AI could not disband any troops) and the player would have to be very stupid to make a move like that as they would find themselves not even being able to conquer Poland and would be pretty much game over...

 

[ketil brambgard]

Hi Everybody,

I like the idea and here is my mechanic proposal for having generals deaths (or other kind of game factor with name: politician, tech team, whatever).
1. Implement a nation experience pool. It would be incremented with battles, research, diplomacy, etc... It would also created with cost of other kind of resources (money, manpower, time, etc)
2. Allow battle death of the generals in hard conditions or random effects.
3. Allow National Experience to be use to avoid the flavour general death.
You will have a tool that allows not to lose your favourites and a tool that can be used in more actions (speed up research, diplomatic pressure, spy actions and deception).
Basically it would be a RPG resource to be used strategically.
Best regards.

 

[Augustus93]

Hi Everybody,

I like the idea and here is my mechanic proposal for having generals deaths (or other kind of game factor with name: politician, tech team, whatever).
1. Implement a nation experience pool. It would be incremented with battles, research, diplomacy, etc... It would also created with cost of other kind of resources (money, manpower, time, etc)
2. Allow battle death of the generals in hard conditions or random effects.
3. Allow National Experience to be use to avoid the flavour general death.
You will have a tool that allows not to lose your favourites and a tool that can be used in more actions (speed up research, diplomatic pressure, spy actions and deception).
Basically it would be a RPG resource to be used strategically.
Best regards.

Maybe you should post this to the worst ideas thread...

 

[mursolini]

Yes, because all the other horrors of warfare, the killing, the dismemberments, the bloody messes of carnage, are all okay so long as we don't encroach on the much more horrifying prospect of capture and internment. Much nicer to blow someone's head off or run them over with a tank than to capture and imprison them, or even possibly kill them after capturing them.

And yet we have what we have. Death=perfectly acceptable for video games, capture-torchure-imprisonment in labor camps-no no.

When US invaded Iraq, and killed large part of Sadam forces, nobody gave a notice. When US holds prisoners in Guantamano, it is a serious political buisness. Probably one can earns good cash for yelling about "human rights" in the case, why else would people bother.

 

[ketil brambgard]

Maybe you should post this to the worst ideas thread...

He!, If it is a good or bad idea is your decision. My aim was to offer a way to solution the requested
Best regards

 

[NapoleonComple]

Here are my thoughts. This seems fair to me, generals can die/be captured, but...

1) It only happens once the division is down a certain % of its strength/highly disorganised/both. A general is far more likely to be in the front lines if the formation is in disarray and many men are dead. I reckon it should be something like a minimal chance once you hit 75% strength/10% org, rising to a small chance at 60%, a medium chance at 50% and you're really chancing you arm if it falls to 25% of your total strength AND you're disorganised. This also punishes players who let their divisions fall into total disorganisation instead of pulling back. If you've let your unit fall into complete chaos, bad things can happen. Organisation should mean something more than just being a ticking clock at the end of which the unit has to withdraw from combat for a little breather.

2) If your division is surrounded and there's no airbase (except perhaps plains where someone could possibly get the general out in a small biplane or something) and it then gets wiped out, you should lose ALL military units attached to that army. What, do you think they teleported out or something if they're in the middle of mountains, heavy urban terrain without an airport or mired in a swamp? Even if there is infrastructure your chances of losing your generals should go up dramatically. Don't get your best guys encircled! You'll lose more than just that crack Panzer division!

3) Don't introduce completely random elements. I think both Yahtzee Croshaw and Angry Joe have complained about this before and I agree. A player who loses a general should lose that general because they did one of the stupid things above. I constantly rage at getting the "bank run" event in DH. Sure, it's historical to occasionally have economic downturns. Do you still think its fun to routinely lose chunks of cash/IC and take random dissent increases because the game decided its time to mess me up?

4) Leader Skill/traits should have something to do with it. An idiotic 0-skill moron with the "Reckless Buffoon" trait should have far more chance of getting himself encircled and killed than a Manstein, Mannerheim, Auckinleck or Zhukov. War is no place for fools, and even the people "behind the lines" are going to get themselves killed if they simply can't cope.

I think if it's done like this no one will really be able to complain. The org thing might rankle some people, but again you really shouldn't be allowing your divisions to fall into chaos.

 

[Augustus93]

For those of you not taking into account the fact that divisional leaders are gone: It does not matter if your division shatters when your general/leader is 50 km behind the front lines drinking coffee in their corps HQ. They should only die or be captured when you encircle the HQ with a leader and in that case they could still be flown out from there with a transport plane.

 

[Art1985]

That would basically be like saying that we dont want this feature to have any impact on the game. An easier way of doing that is not to include it.

What if make something like this? :
if (unitStrength< 20%){ 20% chance commander dies if unit is in combat;}
Strongly shattered unit has a chance to lose their commander.

 

[shri]

air plane crashes and car accidents (Dietl, Eglseer, von Wickede, Löwrick, Schroth for example)

Let me add Luftwaffe's 2 top Generals- Walther Wever and Wener Molders


But again as DIV Gens are out and only Corps and above are in-
HOSPITALISATION is one thing that can be done-
A corps which is badly mauled can have its general(s) hospitalised (out of use) for 6 months.
similarly, if whole armies or army groups are mauled like USSR in Barbarossa, entire General staff on Picnic.

Can be treated as injury or political injury!

 

[Ksyr]

I would prefer if they spent the time developing something else. A lot of work for something that is really annoying.

 

[Porkman]

I would prefer if they spent the time developing something else. A lot of work for something that is really annoying.

You don't want to surround Montgomery's army 4 times only to have him pop up leading new troops each time.

 

[seattle]

You don't want to surround Montgomery's army 4 times only to have him pop up leading new troops each time.

So the Brits wouldn't have rescued him by air/sea and continued to use him?

 

[Ksyr]

So the Brits wouldn't have rescued him by air/sea and continued to use him?

No, small planes that could carry a single passenger was not invented at the time
Just look at how Rommel was captured when the Africa corp was defeated. Or how Mussolini didnt get away from the mountain prison.

 

[Art1985]

just look at how rommel was captured when the africa corp was defeated.

wat?!

 

[Joppos]

No, small planes that could carry a single passenger was not invented at the time
Just look at how Rommel was captured when the Africa corp was defeated. Or how Mussolini didnt get away from the mountain prison.

Or how Paulus didn't fly away in his small plane. Oh wait.

Obviously porkman included "4 times" to indicate that a guaranteed escape of a leader each time, no matter the situation, would be rather silly. In a dunkirk-type scenario sure, but encirclement in the heart of russia or germany with hundreds of kilometers to the front and no air-superiority; not so much. Especially not repeatedly.

 

[Conch]

Or how Paulus didn't fly away in his small plane. Oh wait.

Paulus couldnt fly away due to sovjets controlling the sky. Even IF he would have made it out, he would have died. Hitler made him a Field Marshal to give him a hint - he was intended to do suicide. As Paulus obviously didnt think that was a viable solution, what do you think Hitler would have done to him if he fled?

 

[Joppos]

Paulus couldnt fly away due to sovjets controlling the sky. Even IF he would have made it out, he would have died. Hitler made him a Field Marshal to give him a hint - he was intended to do suicide. As Paulus obviously didnt think that was a viable solution, what do you think Hitler would have done to him if he fled?

Exactly. He couldn't escape, which was my point. So it makes little sense to let leaders escape with a 100 % guarantee, which was implied by the post i replied to.

 

[Augustus93]

No, small planes that could carry a single passenger was not invented at the time
Just look at how Rommel was captured when the Africa corp was defeated. Or how Mussolini didnt get away from the mountain prison.

Either you have very bad understanding of history and should be ashamed for being wrong on your whole comment or you are using sarcasm. Personally I think you are in fact using sarcasm.

 

[Porkman]

No, small planes that could carry a single passenger was not invented at the time
Just look at how Rommel was captured when the Africa corp was defeated. Or how Mussolini didnt get away from the mountain prison.

Joppos was right about why I said "4 times." Generals didn't always escape when they were defeated and surrounded. You're also going for a very Eurocentric view of the war where there was always fuel, small planes, and a handy paved road to use as an airstrip. In the Pacific, China, or Southeast Asia, even small planes weren't guaranteed.

I have no problem with generals having a possibility of dying if they are encircled and defeated. There's also a bias in your examples because the famous generals we know about tended to be the ones who weren't defeated.

 

[DoomBunny]

Or how Paulus didn't fly away in his small plane. Oh wait.

This may perhaps have been because Paulus was hiding in a basement before giving himself up, if he'd wanted to get out, he could have.

There's also a bias in your examples because the famous generals we know about tended to be the ones who weren't defeated.

Oh I dunno, Rommel gave it a good few spins.