Kigdom and Empire resetting to gavelkind?

[Helios Ra]

I have a fun story relating to this. I'll start from the beginning. I was the king of Leon (Alfonso IV?) at the 1066 start. I had one daughter Sancha by Matilda of Tuscany. Matilda died so I remarried. Can't remember who. I had an imbecile son. While this happened I assassinated my brothers for Castille and Leon. I hoped that I'd get another son and that this one would die but no. I died in battle and my imbecile son inherited the realm. He died quickly though, and his sister the duchess of Tuscany inherited! Yay! She reigned for a good 60 years and took back Iberia basically. She outlived her children so her grandson was her heir. She created the Empire of Hispania in her mid 70s.
And that's when I ran into the problem described in the OP. it was Gavelkins even though all my 6 kingdom titles were elective. And because of that, for some reason my Empire is set to be inherited by my Piast grandson (the son of my daughter, my oldest child) the king of Poland. This has additionally reset all my elective monarchies who previously backed my Jimena grandson. The King of Poland is now the heir for all but one, with a total of 0 votes.
My response has been save/reloading until my queen has lived the ten years to change the inheritance laws of the empire and made attempts to assassinate the King of Poland. I maimed him and have made it to the age of 85. Unfortunately two of my vassals are fighting wars with each other even though I have medium crown authority everywhere. And that kind of war basically never ends. So. I just have to kill the King of Poland. If this was an intentional change then I feel it should have a warning when you create a new title that it will be Gavelkind and not whatever your primary titles succession is.

 

[CB60]

It's too much work! This needs to be changed.

 

[CB60]

Doesn't seem like too many people are concerned with this, but it does bother me. Hence - a bump.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

Yes. This is annoying.

It's also bad for gameplay. It means you don't form new titles when your king is old so you know you'll have the decade you need to fix your succession before you die. This shouldn't be a factor in how you play, but it is now. Bad incentives.

 

[CB60]

It's also bad for gameplay.

Precisely. Why bother creating the kingdom of Wales if it's all going to fall apart (and what is it with those guys? randy as goats - the court always seems to be stuffed with progeny!)

 

[Matthaios]

Noticed this bug too when I created Kingdom of Italy as Toscana. Sigh...another to-be scrapped campaign... I guess I wont be starting serious campaign anytime soon...

 

[Emre Yigit]

So does this only happen with duchies, or is this kingdoms too? Reading the posts, I'm a little lost. o

 

[Maeldun]

So does this only happen with duchies, or is this kingdoms too? Reading the posts, I'm a little lost. o

It happens with duchies as well. The fact that such a major change was not listed in the changelog suggests that this was not intentional. Unfortunately, nobody from Paradox has offered any illumination on the subject. This is probably the biggest reason why I'm still playing 1.05g. If this is an intentional change, I'd like to hear their reasoning and I'd like to see it listed in the changelog so I know whether it is a fix or a design change. As an undocumented change with no developer comment, I can't see this as anything other than a bug at this point.

 

[BongoBongo]

Had this too, with 1.05.

Was King of Wales and of England. Both were elective. When he died, England went to his brother and Wales went to his son. I continued to play as the son, and made the King of England (his uncle) his heir. When he died and the kingdoms reunified, I notice that England had been changed by the brother to Gavelkind.

BTW, England's crown authority was at its minimum at this point, so I don't even know HOW the brother changed the succession laws.

 

[Maeldun]

Had this too, with 1.05.

Was King of Wales and of England. Both were elective. When he died, England went to his brother and Wales went to his son. I continued to play as the son, and made the King of England (his uncle) his heir. When he died and the kingdoms reunified, I notice that England had been changed by the brother to Gavelkind.

BTW, England's crown authority was at its minimum at this point, so I don't even know HOW the brother changed the succession laws.

This bug does not occur in 1.05g. What you're describing is something different. In your case, England split off from your control, so the AI may have chosen gavelkind (if enough time passed) or perhaps the game defaults new factions to gavelkind after a succession crisis. Limited Crown Authority (the lowest level) is sufficient to change to Elective or Gavelkind. Only Seniority and Primogeniture require higher levels of Crown Authority.

In any event, what you're describing is not the same as what is being discussed here. The issue in 1.06 is that duchies, kingdoms and empires that are created are not retaining the succession laws the ruler previously had. For example, the Duke of Meath has Elective Succession and creates the Kingdom of Ireland. The Kingdom of Ireland now has Gavelkind Succession laws and because the reign (as king) has just started, the ruler may not change it for 10 years. As others have pointed out, this makes it very dangerous for older rulers to create duchies, kingdoms and empires. It makes no sense, it was never documented as either a bug that needed fixing and there is no information in any of the changelogs (or dev diaries) that this was ever an intentional change.

 

[CB60]

Right, every time you move up a level - from duke to king, for example - everything is reset. Not just succession, but new ruler malus as well.

 

[unmerged(464016)]

Yeah i won a crusade for Glacia..................... i reloaded and intentionally lost it after this happened to me.

But also it seems like switching primary titles (in duchies and counties) is also resetting things. Before this new patch , if you had PRIMO in 1 duchy , than made another duchy your Primary title , you would still have primo. Now it doesn't.

In all honesty i wanna know something because ive never really played with Gavelkind. But ive seen this constantly in 1.06. IF you have a Daughter and she has a grandkid , said Grandkid becomes your primary heir under Gavelkind (and any direct sons you have are secondary heirs). But i believe under primogeniture , the throne always passes to the most suitable male line first. That means , if you had 2 daughters and a son , than both daughters later had sons , your 3rd kid and rulers SON would inherit , not your Grandkids from the Women. However your oldest SON had a SON , then he would become the heir over any brothers (thus it follows the male line first).

 

[BongoBongo]

I just wanted to say thanks for your detailed reply. And sorry to miss the point of the thread. Part of the problem is that I was playing with the CK2+ mod, which requires a certain level of crown authority (medium, I think) to change succession laws. So it must be a mod issue, that that restriction didn't apply to the AI. Anyway, thanks & apologies.

This bug does not occur in 1.05g. What you're describing is something different. In your case, England split off from your control, so the AI may have chosen gavelkind (if enough time passed) or perhaps the game defaults new factions to gavelkind after a succession crisis. Limited Crown Authority (the lowest level) is sufficient to change to Elective or Gavelkind. Only Seniority and Primogeniture require higher levels of Crown Authority.

In any event, what you're describing is not the same as what is being discussed here. The issue in 1.06 is that duchies, kingdoms and empires that are created are not retaining the succession laws the ruler previously had. For example, the Duke of Meath has Elective Succession and creates the Kingdom of Ireland. The Kingdom of Ireland now has Gavelkind Succession laws and because the reign (as king) has just started, the ruler may not change it for 10 years. As others have pointed out, this makes it very dangerous for older rulers to create duchies, kingdoms and empires. It makes no sense, it was never documented as either a bug that needed fixing and there is no information in any of the changelogs (or dev diaries) that this was ever an intentional change.

 

[Maeldun]

Right, every time you move up a level - from duke to king, for example - everything is reset. Not just succession, but new ruler malus as well.

The "Short Reign" opinion penalty is not new to 1.06. It is present in 1.05g and makes sense. When you increase your station, say from Count to Duke, you gain certain powers. As a Duke, you can revoke people's titles and appoint bishop successors. Your vassals are going to take some time to warm up to the idea of you having more power over them. The same applies when you become a king. You may not have the higher crown authority right away, but it is certainly available. Laws can also only be changed once per reign. For instance, as a Duke you could increase Feudal Noble taxation laws, then after you become a King, do it again. Without creating a new reign by moving up a rank, you'd only be able to change one law in your lifetime. It's fitting for such a maneuver to have some sort of opinion hit (albeit temporary) with your vassals.

The resetting to Gavelkind is a different matter.

 

[CB60]

Good point. Ok...I can accept the malus, but succession should be carried over.

 

[KrakenHeart]

After I give my unlanded son a county it states that I'm going to lose a kingdom to him on death. Is this normal? Primogeniture btw

 

[CB60]

If he's your heir...sure.

 

[Redwulf_Storm]

I have recently played with the new patch 1.06b and have had no problems with succession laws changing when I created first a duchy, then a kingdom, then finally an empire. Though if memory serves I didn't change my laws until I was a duke, and then I changed them to primogeniture, which I perfer. I think it seems that the problem comes when you have elective succession. So if you want to play with the newest patch just go primogeniture until they get it worked out, it may not be ideal but it's better then scraping everything. Besides once you are emperor or king or whatever the highest rank you want to be, then you can change it to elective if that is what you want. Hope that helps someone.

 

[knppel]

In combination with cultural requirements suddenly have to be met to be granted an existing title (probs to your heir to keep it) this is really hard. Where before I could keep mystuff at the cost of people being pissed at myheir, now I just have to watch it all fall apart every generation a bit, no matter what.
Or, as Kynaz said, intentionally not acquiring certain titles (with cultural restrictments) at old age (30+ in medieval times) as they will be lost due to Gavelkind preset and the heir not being Greek, Cuman, Pagan or whatever.
Technically I'd appreciate making certain areas of the world less attractive to conquer, but restricting invaders from then delegate their inherited King tier titles and thus making it lose them the title to some other member of their dynasty is not how it's supposed to work imo.

 

[CB60]

I have recently played with the new patch 1.06b and have had no problems with succession laws changing when I created first a duchy, then a kingdom, then finally an empire. Though if memory serves I didn't change my laws until I was a duke, and then I changed them to primogeniture, which I perfer. I think it seems that the problem comes when you have elective succession. So if you want to play with the newest patch just go primogeniture until they get it worked out, it may not be ideal but it's better then scraping everything. Besides once you are emperor or king or whatever the highest rank you want to be, then you can change it to elective if that is what you want. Hope that helps someone.

I started as the Duke of Barcelona, with primogeniture, but when I became King of Aragon it reset to gavelkind.