This is a suggestion about making Kiev principality exist in game at 1444 at the game start. Agree and watch.
The reason main underlying reason under this decision is that in history it was actually a vassal for Lithuania and not a regular voivodship (which it would become later) and that it being a vassal hugely changes balance for Lithuania and the region in a more historical way.
History
In XIV century Lithuanian Duchy expanded into Rus’ duchies. Gediminas subjugated most of them and founded the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in its bigger borders.
However, very similarly to Rus’, the succession was close gavelkind and sons, which received different principalities, competed for power. Since 1362 Kiev Principality was ruled by Vladimir Olgerdovich (son of Duke Algirdas, the grandson of Gediminas) he gathered around himself local nobles and was more in favour of pro-Orthodox party and as a result influencing more the role of his domain. He supported Wladyslav II Jagailo on his bid to being a grand duke, but Vytautas prevailed and later started the campaign to eliminate political rivals, replacing them with his appointed governors.
This state didn’t last however as in 1432-1438 a civil war ensued in Grand Duchy of Lithuania after death of Vytautas. Grand duke Svitrigaila (who was supported primarily by Orthodox lands) was rebelled by Sigismund and as a result of a rather long civil war he was defeated. Sigismund, who emerged as a winner, died in 1440 and as a result a new duke was to be elected – who was Casimir IV.
His election didn’t go uncontested however – one of the pretenders was a son of Vladimir Olgerdovich, Olelko Olgerdovich. Due to this, and a rather huge pressure from Ruthenian nobles, Casimir had no choice but to restore the principality in 1440.
Since 1440 Olelko Olgerdovich (who is considered a founder of Olelkovich family) ruled there, until his death roughly in 1454. His son, Simeon Olelkovich, was a new kniaz of Kiev principality, but Casimir didn’t acknowledge his rights as hereditary. It led to the annexation of the principality in 1471 after the death of Simeon, when Casimir, ruler of both Poland and Lithuania in their stable period, could afford to integrate the principality without major problems.
This is a major point for both Lithuania and Poland. It was a rule of a successful monarch who could use his heightened position to annex the resistant lands and make the crown rule dominate the land. The fate of Kiev principality, in general, didn’t look great and the chances that it would remain as a vassal or not be annexed were rather low with consolidation of power in the region. However, the history of Kiev principality, even the relative one, shows the influence of Ruthenian and Orthodox party in Lithuanian affairs. Strong enough to demand back their own principality and local rule, they definitely should have their own principality.
But there is another issue to this.
Gameplay issue
Right now Lithuania is a rather odd position, where it makes too much sense for it to choose ahistorical path and become Orthodox, perhaps Ruthenian. The envisioned path for it, to subjugate Ruthenia and be its own political monster, isn’t as viable for a number of reasons:
I don’t think that it is necessary to state it, but here we can see Lithuania stuck with hard missions which don’t even make much sense unless you let Orthodox and Ruthenian counterpart of the state overtake it – which is honestly quite an odd task for a nation which has tolerance of heretics not just as an idea, but as a tradition, which isn’t even a mission for a much more devout Poland.
The whole Orthodox situation in Lithuania isn’t entirely incorrect of course. For the level of depth at which EU3 was or where EU4 started it was largely correct. But the game became deeper than that and different regions got a much deeper rework or update. Russia is way more deeper in representation than Lithuania now, Poland became much more represented and most nations got the update. But Lithuania wasn’t updated that much during Cossack times – it only fixed an issue of Zaporozhia being a very odd Orthodox Horde.
Main reasons why Kiev should become an existing vassal in game
For this day, it makes sense by wide and large to make Kiev principality a vassal to Lithuania instead of a plain territory. It solves a huge number of different historical and gameplay issues, bringing new political and gameplay opportunities and fixes:
Last argument
Nearly for 50 years before 1444 Lithuania had 3 major civil wars. It took a fail in a civil war to try to integrate Kiev duchy and 2 wars later, during the last of which it was a defacto independent state, as a result it was still separated back into a vassal principality, with one of pretenders to the Lithuanian throne, becoming its head.
Even screwed heavily by Mongols, it still was a noticeable center of power.
Gameplay-wise, it has all potential to improve the game for Lithuania and significantly add flavour to the turbulent situation in the Eastern Europe, making it less of a bashing of few majors and more of growing into stable major and bashing others to not become that.
And while we can argue how formally it was a separate state from Lithuania, the fact is that it was a fully capable unit inside of Lithuania and much more than a province even with huge autonomy modifiers. It wasn't just a thing about autonomy in this case, it was a case when that part of Great Duchy of Lithuania gravitated Orthodox nobles, had own influence and agenda which often confronted Polish and a rather big desire to make Grand Duchy of Lithuania become Ruthenia - a thing it wouldn't do in 1444 and shouldn't, but which is too real and makes too much sense and is just easier to achieve by giving up Catholicism... which Great Duchy Lithuania wouldn't do at that point, as Lithuania.
At this point I feel like I reiterate arguments, so I'm stopping here.
The reason main underlying reason under this decision is that in history it was actually a vassal for Lithuania and not a regular voivodship (which it would become later) and that it being a vassal hugely changes balance for Lithuania and the region in a more historical way.
History
In XIV century Lithuanian Duchy expanded into Rus’ duchies. Gediminas subjugated most of them and founded the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in its bigger borders.
However, very similarly to Rus’, the succession was close gavelkind and sons, which received different principalities, competed for power. Since 1362 Kiev Principality was ruled by Vladimir Olgerdovich (son of Duke Algirdas, the grandson of Gediminas) he gathered around himself local nobles and was more in favour of pro-Orthodox party and as a result influencing more the role of his domain. He supported Wladyslav II Jagailo on his bid to being a grand duke, but Vytautas prevailed and later started the campaign to eliminate political rivals, replacing them with his appointed governors.
This state didn’t last however as in 1432-1438 a civil war ensued in Grand Duchy of Lithuania after death of Vytautas. Grand duke Svitrigaila (who was supported primarily by Orthodox lands) was rebelled by Sigismund and as a result of a rather long civil war he was defeated. Sigismund, who emerged as a winner, died in 1440 and as a result a new duke was to be elected – who was Casimir IV.
His election didn’t go uncontested however – one of the pretenders was a son of Vladimir Olgerdovich, Olelko Olgerdovich. Due to this, and a rather huge pressure from Ruthenian nobles, Casimir had no choice but to restore the principality in 1440.
Since 1440 Olelko Olgerdovich (who is considered a founder of Olelkovich family) ruled there, until his death roughly in 1454. His son, Simeon Olelkovich, was a new kniaz of Kiev principality, but Casimir didn’t acknowledge his rights as hereditary. It led to the annexation of the principality in 1471 after the death of Simeon, when Casimir, ruler of both Poland and Lithuania in their stable period, could afford to integrate the principality without major problems.
This is a major point for both Lithuania and Poland. It was a rule of a successful monarch who could use his heightened position to annex the resistant lands and make the crown rule dominate the land. The fate of Kiev principality, in general, didn’t look great and the chances that it would remain as a vassal or not be annexed were rather low with consolidation of power in the region. However, the history of Kiev principality, even the relative one, shows the influence of Ruthenian and Orthodox party in Lithuanian affairs. Strong enough to demand back their own principality and local rule, they definitely should have their own principality.
But there is another issue to this.
Gameplay issue
Right now Lithuania is a rather odd position, where it makes too much sense for it to choose ahistorical path and become Orthodox, perhaps Ruthenian. The envisioned path for it, to subjugate Ruthenia and be its own political monster, isn’t as viable for a number of reasons:
- Orthodoxy is a major religion there
- Ruthenian and Byelorussians are significantly outnumbering Lithuanians
- “Develop Ruthenia” missions are awfully hurting to Lithunia for understandable reasons, make not so much sense too
- The quest to convert it all to Catholicism or become Orthodox is rather dubious.
- The Cossack missions, while being a good idea, are still rather crudely done and disregard somewhat the historical flow (not registering the difference between Register Cossacks and Free Cossacks... but it is a separate topic)
I don’t think that it is necessary to state it, but here we can see Lithuania stuck with hard missions which don’t even make much sense unless you let Orthodox and Ruthenian counterpart of the state overtake it – which is honestly quite an odd task for a nation which has tolerance of heretics not just as an idea, but as a tradition, which isn’t even a mission for a much more devout Poland.
The whole Orthodox situation in Lithuania isn’t entirely incorrect of course. For the level of depth at which EU3 was or where EU4 started it was largely correct. But the game became deeper than that and different regions got a much deeper rework or update. Russia is way more deeper in representation than Lithuania now, Poland became much more represented and most nations got the update. But Lithuania wasn’t updated that much during Cossack times – it only fixed an issue of Zaporozhia being a very odd Orthodox Horde.
Main reasons why Kiev should become an existing vassal in game
For this day, it makes sense by wide and large to make Kiev principality a vassal to Lithuania instead of a plain territory. It solves a huge number of different historical and gameplay issues, bringing new political and gameplay opportunities and fixes:
- As a vassal, Kiev is more likely to develop Ruthenia and amend the poor wealth of these lands, which is good gameplay-wise
- Without Kiev, the internal situation for the rest of Lithuania significantly improves - the state becomes closer to homohenity, converting Belorus may be feasable
- As a vassal, Kiev may contribute much more to Lithuania, save it from immediate dangers as a vassal buffer, letting Lithuania historically focus on Teutons, Poland and Muscovy
- Expanding on above, it allows Lithuania as a playable state worry more about historically making sense neighbors (Muscovy, Poland, Teutons) and less about Horde, Crimea or early Ottomans, allowing to shape up gameplay and missions to actually dominating somewhat more core region to it rather than Ruthenia
- Separating Kiev would mean actually giving a better representation for the Orthodox nobility and part of nobles which wanted and could turn Lithuania into Orthodox state - them having Kiev as a separate principality would show their influence, but prevent the rather senseless flips by Lithuania to Orthodox from get-go - making them at least more effective at following a "normal" path
- As principality worked, with its own ruler, own small army and coins, it was pretty much a vassal
- Allowing Kiev to exist enables way more fun options for both Kiev, Lithuania&Poland and for their neighbors; however, a strong position of Poland normally should prevent too easy breakaway, as well as nice relations at the game start between rulers (not historical friends though)
- Separating KIev would actually allow to rework Lithuanian missions to be more Lithuanian; as a state, Lithuania shouldn't really be forced to developed Ruthenia by missions
- Another point is that many similar vassals are represented as existing, not swallowed up; Lithuania being a huge behemoth made up from big and small principalities and still not centralized in XV century shouldn't be magical exception in whole Europe with 0 (ZERO) vassals as it robs region of much of flavour - Lithuania ain't a unicorn
- Mission "Restore Kiev" could be changed to something better for Lithuania - like developing Lithuania proper, which would make way more sense
- Lastly, it allows to simply separate this country's interests and the interests of Orthodox nobility and that part of it, splitting up this state fairly well for the game start
Last argument
Nearly for 50 years before 1444 Lithuania had 3 major civil wars. It took a fail in a civil war to try to integrate Kiev duchy and 2 wars later, during the last of which it was a defacto independent state, as a result it was still separated back into a vassal principality, with one of pretenders to the Lithuanian throne, becoming its head.
Even screwed heavily by Mongols, it still was a noticeable center of power.
Gameplay-wise, it has all potential to improve the game for Lithuania and significantly add flavour to the turbulent situation in the Eastern Europe, making it less of a bashing of few majors and more of growing into stable major and bashing others to not become that.
And while we can argue how formally it was a separate state from Lithuania, the fact is that it was a fully capable unit inside of Lithuania and much more than a province even with huge autonomy modifiers. It wasn't just a thing about autonomy in this case, it was a case when that part of Great Duchy of Lithuania gravitated Orthodox nobles, had own influence and agenda which often confronted Polish and a rather big desire to make Grand Duchy of Lithuania become Ruthenia - a thing it wouldn't do in 1444 and shouldn't, but which is too real and makes too much sense and is just easier to achieve by giving up Catholicism... which Great Duchy Lithuania wouldn't do at that point, as Lithuania.
At this point I feel like I reiterate arguments, so I'm stopping here.
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