Khorramdin and the Khurramites

[housemartell]

For those of you unfamiliar, Babak Khorramdin was the leader of a failed Iranian rebellion against Arab Muslim rule from 816 to 837. He was one of the Khurramites, a Zoroastrian movement that also blended Mazdaki and Shia Islamic elements. According to some sources, they believed in free sex, reincarnation and, non-violence. Some degree of gender equality was also likely present, as Babak's wife, Banu, was his co-leader and battle companion.

I think most people would find this movement interesting and, if I recall correctly, one of the devs once said that he wanted to implement it somehow but thought a separate bookmark would be take too much time and effort, which is fair enough. Instead, I propose that Babak and Banu Khorramdin should appear via event around 816 as leaders of a revolt to liberate the Persian Empire if the majority of Persia is under Muslim rule and there is no powerful Zoroastrian state around. Khurramitism/Khorram-Dinan/Muhammira, or whatever the most appropriate name for the religion is, should either appear as a Shiite heresy or replace Mazdakism as a Zoroastrian heresy. They should definitely have some unique features, but I'm not entirely sure what, especially as similar revolutionary heresies have practically no in-game difference (for example, Mazdakism, which the Khurramites were inspired by and which was practically proto-communism, plays almost exactly like normal Zoroastrianism and Catharism, which mandated nonviolence, vegetarianism, celibacy, and gender egalitarianism, is at least given absolute cognatic succession, but the AI never uses it anyway). Gender equality (i.e. female councilors and absolute cognatic succession) is a possibility, although I can't find any evidence that they believed in this beyond the existence of Banu Khorramdin, they could receive the Indian religions' reincarnation events, and they could possibly also have more maluses when waging offensive wars to represent nonviolence.

So that's my view on the Khurramites and how they could be implemented, feel free to disagree with, critique, or expand upon anything I've said.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Thankyou so much for posting this! I was looking for a name for another Zoro heresy since I split out manicheanism as its own religion. And now I've got some mechanics too

 

[Knotz]

You had me at free sex.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I have AD 821 bookmark under work where one can play as Babak but as I am updating my AD 935, it's currently taken a backseat when it comes to work.

Spoiler

It won't have any mechanics for Mazdaki heresy though, other MODs need to take care of that. If I would get the choice, Mazdaki heresy would be like this:

- Gender-Equal (Cathar/Messalian)
- Sayoshant
- Reincarnation

They would lose Divine Blood and Restore Priesthood to take into account that Mazdaki considered Sassanian priests to be corrupt. Naturally they would not get Concubines either.

They would retain Jewish Courtiers and I would also give them Sky Burial, irrespective of government (=not restricted to Nomads)

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Khurramites!

Thanks again for the suggestion! You got any ideas for Manichean heresies?

 

[Damarrocarion]

Remember to alter localisation as well as I would not think Mazdaki should get concubines. I would use this as it would indicate Mazdaki heresy can mean any number of religious/rebel movements rather than Khurramites as there were large number of such rebels but Babak was most successful.

Mazdaki: Mazdak was a Zoroastrian priest who attempted to reform the faith, speaking against corrupt priesthood and advocating communal property among other things. Mazdak was put to death by Shahanshan Kavadh I but his teachings survived. Mazdak's philosophy later merged with Shia islam and inspired several Neo-Mazdaki rebel groups, such as Khurramites.

'There is (and can exist) no religious head

• Women may hold all council positions
  
  
• No penalty against female rulers or heirs.

I have ideas for Manichean mechanics but not for Manichean heresy.

 

[housemartell]

You got any ideas for Manichean heresies?

I've done a bit of research (i.e. looked it up on wikipedia) and from what I can tell Manichaeism - probably because it mostly existed as an esoteric belief system rather than an organized and centralized religion with an intellectual clergy eager to debate scripture - never really broke down into competing sects (or, at least, there aren't enough surviving Manichee texts to tell what the different sects were). However, Manichaeism was heavily based on Gnosticism, so if you want you could classify smaller Gnostic sects like Mandaeism as Manichee heresies. In fact, I think there's at least one other mod that is/was out there that does something similar to that.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

I've done a bit of research (i.e. looked it up on wikipedia) and from what I can tell Manichaeism - probably because it mostly existed as an esoteric belief system rather than an organized and centralized religion with an intellectual clergy eager to debate scripture - never really broke down into competing sects (or, at least, there aren't enough surviving Manichee texts to tell what the different sects were). However, Manichaeism was heavily based on Gnosticism, so if you want you could classify smaller Gnostic sects like Mandaeism as Manichee heresies. In fact, I think there's at least one other mod that is/was out there that does something similar to that.

That was actually exactly what I was thinking of doing. Thanks for replying though, you've just confirmed to me that it's probably the best option. The other thing I was thinking of was doing something like, steppe, Persian, and Western but I think Mandaen and Gnostic will look better on the map.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I was once told that something called Miqlasiam could be heresy. Basicly it was split between East/West where eastern manicheans considered western ones too soft as they did not fast/pray enough and Archegos dared to use a donkey to move around rather than walk.

I have not found info of them myself but in game terms I would just have it copy normal mechanics.

 

[Rubidium]

If you really want to stretch it, you could consider the White Lotus Society as a Manichaean heresy; they had significant Manichaean elements mixed in with Buddhism and various traditional Chinese religious beliefs. As a bonus, the Red Turban Army could be their Holy Order.

 

[Asakhra]

Khurramites!

Thanks again for the suggestion! You got any ideas for Manichean heresies?

I think you've possibly got too many Khurramites in there; they were never really the mainstream. Given that they're the Neo-Mazdakites, I'd consider replacing the Mazdaki provinces with them (and put them in Azerbaijan, too), and leave Central Iran orthodox Zoroastrian.

Re. Manichaean sects; there are a few I've discovered, although many of them were either resolved before the medieval period or were only really relevant to regions where Manichaeism had died out by this point. In the Abbasid period, the Manichaeans existed in three-ish sects: the Mihriyands, who were the largest and might best deserve the title of "mainstream" Manichaeans, and who were centered in Iraq and central Iran and followed an Archegos/Imam based in Baghdad (these ones enjoyed official support from the Caliph); the Miqlasi, who seem to have flourished in Media and Kurdistan; and the Denawars, centered in the eastern Iranian lands (it was Denawar missionaries who converted the Uyghurs and pushed into China, for instance). Unfortunately, we do not know most of the differences between these sects. The Mihriyands were supposedly quite open to outside influence; they freely adopted Muslim names and dress, for instance. The Denawars are referred to as being stricter in their adherence to Manichaean/Persian ritual and custom, and the Miqlasi even more so.

Beyond that, there are people who consider the Paulicians as Manichaean, but that might just be part of the general conflation of Gnosticism with Manichaeism in medieval Europe.

e: Come to think of it, it might actually be better to designate the Denawars as mainstream Manichaeans (by which I mean the sect that's actually called "Manichaean" ingame - unless you want to expand Manichaeism into a whole religious group, that is). They did, after all, last the longest, in China and Central Asia, and they're also a good, middle-of-the-road position between the ultra-orthodox Miqlasi and the Islamising Mihriyands.

 

[Damarrocarion]

I think you've possibly got too many Khurramites in there; they were never really the mainstream.

Isn't that just a screenshot of game that has gone for a long time and not any starting position.

 

[Asakhra]

Isn't that just a screenshot of game that has gone for a long time and not any starting position.

Is it? My mistake, sorry. Thought it was a start position screenshot for some reason.

 

[Damarrocarion]

Well, it is certainly not vanilla screenshot with lacking ruler head, etc.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

I think you've possibly got too many Khurramites in there; they were never really the mainstream. Given that they're the Neo-Mazdakites, I'd consider replacing the Mazdaki provinces with them (and put them in Azerbaijan, too), and leave Central Iran orthodox Zoroastrian.

@Damarrocarion has correctly spotted that this is not a starting point but an observe game in progress. I haven't actually added any Khurramites to the bookmarks but because Zoroastrian moral authority tends to be quite low it leads to heresy galore. The screenshot is just from an observe game of my mod where they did unusually well. They ended up getting wiped out by a Shia Jihad shortly afterwards but it was pretty good going from 769!

Anyway, it reminded me to come back here and say thanks again for the idea for them. The fact that Zoroastrianism would tend to end up getting relegated to a Manichaean heresy in most games from the Charlie start was what prompted me to split the two religions, that then lead to me needing more heresies! n.b. If you're wondering why I say this it's because the fact that there are a large number of Manichean provinces in the steppes at this bookmark and the ability of the nomads to spread their religion rapidly means that it takes relatively few low ma Zoro or Mazdaki provinces going heretical to get the +5 size needed to flip the religion.

Re. Manichaean sects; there are a few I've discovered, although many of them were either resolved before the medieval period or were only really relevant to regions where Manichaeism had died out by this point. In the Abbasid period, the Manichaeans existed in three-ish sects: the Mihriyands, who were the largest and might best deserve the title of "mainstream" Manichaeans, and who were centered in Iraq and central Iran and followed an Archegos/Imam based in Baghdad (these ones enjoyed official support from the Caliph); the Miqlasi, who seem to have flourished in Media and Kurdistan; and the Denawars, centered in the eastern Iranian lands (it was Denawar missionaries who converted the Uyghurs and pushed into China, for instance). Unfortunately, we do not know most of the differences between these sects. The Mihriyands were supposedly quite open to outside influence; they freely adopted Muslim names and dress, for instance. The Denawars are referred to as being stricter in their adherence to Manichaean/Persian ritual and custom, and the Miqlasi even more so.

e: Come to think of it, it might actually be better to designate the Denawars as mainstream Manichaeans (by which I mean the sect that's actually called "Manichaean" ingame - unless you want to expand Manichaeism into a whole religious group, that is). They did, after all, last the longest, in China and Central Asia, and they're also a good, middle-of-the-road position between the ultra-orthodox Miqlasi and the Islamising Mihriyands.

This is absolute gold. I think I'm gonna do exactly what you said, use Manicheans as default name, referring to the Denawars who are the only group that are effectively represented in Vanilla given that AFAIK the only starting Manichee are on the steppes. Then add Mihriyands and Miqlasi as heretics, representing the spread of other regional forms into the Denawar area. Could be used to give some flavour as well. I haven't really fleshed out the new religion as yet. My mod is more about balance so making the change was more of a priority than actually getting names and localisation in.

Beyond that, there are people who consider the Paulicians as Manichaean, but that might just be part of the general conflation of Gnosticism with Manichaeism in medieval Europe.

I was aware of the links with the Paulicians but I think they're probably closer to Orthodoxy than Manichaeanism. It would be kinda fun to add a decision letting a Paulician ruler choose to become Manichean though