KGB vs CIA

[LordOfBlood]

So in the cold war, which side was more succesfull or better?

In the whole novels KGB was the brutal one, and every KGB officer would defect to CIA for money or freedom, there were only a few real patriots in KGB, while CIA was mostly the great bureau, and many of them loyal to their state.

However it seemed me that it is hard that KGB was so incompetent.

SO can i get your views on this matter, intelligence in cold war, especially KGB

 

[Gordy]

It's a fact that a lot of KGB men defected westwards, I'm not so sure that very many CIA men ever defected. Quite a few may have taken money from the KGB but I'm not sure that there were that many paid up commies in the CIA.

British intelligence was a different matter, the war had given a lot of people the idea that communism wasn't so bad really and quite a few British agents did defect to the USSR. This was mostly a case of believing the hype about communism rather than doing it for the money.

 

[Arilou]

Soviet intelligence was far more successful at getting info on the workings of western governments than the reverse. (although that's probably mostly due to the difficulties of infiltrating a totalitarian state more than any serious skill)

This is usually pointed out as one of the primary examples of the *limits* of intelligence-gathering.

 

[Semper Victor]

I don't know much about the Cold War era, but during Stalin's government period, Soviet intelligence was hands down the most successful in the world: they infiltrated successfully the Manhattan project, several British government agencies (including the one that coordinated the sharing of nuclear research with the USA), and to an astonishing extent also German upper social circles, which gave them excellent chances at obtaining first-hand information about German military plans (Red Orchestra, Circle of Lucy, etc).

 

[trybald]

Lucy was most likely just a British ruse to give vital information to the Soviets without revealing it's the UK who got them, and as such without prompting questions.

Anyways, it's the Soviets who had by far the best intelligence throughout the Cold War. No US agent or mole came close to most successful Soviet agents and Americans were often embarrassly inept in fighting infiltration.

 

[KanaX]

Some (Tim Weiner, for example, though his works tend to be more sensational than objective) argue that the only way the CIA could even stay in the intelligence game was by buying information from foreign intelligence agencies (CSIS,MI6 and Mossad, notably). Also, the defections helped. CIA had the money and the resources, but arguably it's expertise in the field of intelligence was not on par with other agencies of the world during the Cold War.

 

[Eusebio]

Didn't the CIA tear itself apart under Angelton searching for double agents within the agency?

 

[Calad]

KGB was more effective on field than CIA. CIA however was globaly more effective than KGB, coups in Iran and Chile are good examples but this was becaus US had more recources.

Communism was very popular in Europe before collapse so KGB had no troubles to find collabrators. Was it that M5 was complitely taken over by Soviet double agents and it was a huge scandal in UK?

Reality however was against KGB. Everybody knew that living standards in USSR were horrible as hell, that why many defections into west.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

I really don't know much about this, but the impression I had was that the KGB were vastly superior at human intelligence, the CIA better with technology and analytical capabilities.

 

[unmerged(652342)]

Everybody knew that living standards in USSR were horrible as hell, that why many defections into west.

- :rofl: Yes, in Hollywood movies and general anti-USSR western propaganda. Here were plethora of defectors to USSR from other countries, US including.

 

[trybald]

- :rofl: Yes, in Hollywood movies and general anti-USSR western propaganda. Here were plethora of defectors to USSR from other countries, US including.

Well, living standards were significantly lower. The fact that after the collapse of USSR the economy went from bad to worse should not obfuscate that communism lost the global race for economic supremacy.

Western defectors were usually given conditions of level beyond reach of an average Soviet man, yet still quite often became disillusioned.

 

[Calad]

- :rofl: Yes, in Hollywood movies and general anti-USSR western propaganda. Here were plethora of defectors to USSR from other countries, US including.

There were also a significant flow of refugees coming out of eastern blog and Soviets were always unconfortable of it. Berlin Wall was built precisly because of this continues embarrasment. So no matter the level of USSR propaganda, people in the west were always slightly aware that USSR is not what it claims to be.

 

[Auxiliary]

Well, living standards were significantly lower. The fact that after the collapse of USSR the economy went from bad to worse should not obfuscate that communism lost the global race for economic supremacy.

Western defectors were usually given conditions of level beyond reach of an average Soviet man, yet still quite often became disillusioned.

And as for inviting journalists and the likes they made sure to only let in the gullible ones. There are a few interesting things in the videos of Yuri Bezmenov on Youtube, like how they first sent information to potential journalists in order to see if they could take the propaganda as facts and respond positively to it, then they'd invite them, show them only the good stuff and also try to keep them drunk so that their memory of it all would be a bit hazy. Then they could supply the right version at the end so that the journalists would not have to admit they may not have learned enough and gratefully listen to the story given.

 

[KanaX]

I really don't know much about this, but the impression I had was that the KGB were vastly superior at human intelligence, the CIA better with technology and analytical capabilities.

This would be the case according to the books I've read on the subject, although much of the technological and analytical information was (and is) provided by the NSA (and FBI). Yet HUMINT and SIGINT are only means to an end, and I would measure success of the agencies involved by what they wished to achieve and how these goals were met in the end. Arguably the collapse of the Soviet Union was the ultimate goal.

 

[Eusebio]

The collapse of the USSR had nothing to do with the CIA and it's something they never predicted.

 

[Calad]

The collapse of the USSR had nothing to do with the CIA and it's something they never predicted.

And somebody claimed this?

 

[Wagonlitz]

And somebody claimed this?

I have always heard that the CIA was really surpriced when the Berlin Wall fell.

 

[magritte2]

And somebody claimed this?

Well, the CIA's failure to predict the collapse of the USSR does seem to be an indictment of the effectiveness of its intelligence. Then again, the CIA had a vested interest in exaggerating the strength of the USSR. Telling Congress that its main antagonist was on the verge of collapse wouldn't have been good for its budgets.

 

[Eusebio]

And somebody claimed this?

Yeah

I would measure success of the agencies involved by what they wished to achieve and how these goals were met in the end. Arguably the collapse of the Soviet Union was the ultimate goal.

 

[KanaX]

Yeah

I didn't say the CIA was responsible, but their goal was nevertheless the same. One can question what the role of the CIA had (if any) in bringing down the USSR, but it did certainly work towards it (say, by arming the mujahideen in Afganistan). Even by wasting resources and opportunities and showing gross incompetence in certain fields of intelligence, the CIA still stands. The KGB does not, despite all their brilliant work.