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I can see how this problem could be from the throughput from berlin for supplies not being enough.

in my game I believe i see Berlin sending supplies out of every province its connected to. to the limit.

for supplies and fuel to still be connected to the capital cities is sorta funny.

especially with this new system, where each province has a limit on its load of supplies.

So thereby causing my army in Russia, to soak up 95% of the supply and fuel requests, while my little 2 brigade division in france sits there and loses strength and organization because its not getting any supplies.

That seems silly :(
 

PanzerWilly

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I understand they abstracted that the capitol distributes supplies but I think a better mechanism would be using the theater HQ point, like where shattered units go. The supplies based on the IC in the theater of operations would be distributed first and then drawn from other theaters. This would be a bit more realistic than everything coming from the capitol but not so complex that the computer would crash due to overload. A bit of abstraction is nice but not too much.

Obviously, fixing any existing problems should come before any redesign of the supply system.
 

djconklin

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That happens periodically, but if the supplies are running low enough that it lasts until his units are completely out and can't attack, that sounds more like something actively disrupting the supply lines.

As so the Soviets, I'm at peace, boo-koo supplies on hand, and a HQ sitting still deep in the interior runs out of supplies! I can just imagine waht is going to happen if I attack someone.

Also the supplies needed per day bounces around a bit like a yo-yo for no reason. I had this prob with HoI2 as I recall.
 

Bleedingorange1

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The supply model is broken. As Germany I had 5 divisions total in what used to be Vichy France doing garrison work not moving with 100% infra between each unit province and Berlin. One was in the port of Marsielle with Gibraltor open and I had 200+ convoys and all 5 were out of supplies for over 5 days despite having 99K supplies and the most up todate supply techs. There were also no air attacks occuring to disrupt my logistics. Even if there was a bottleneck in a land province, the units still could have been supplied by sea. This also discounts the number of provinces that could be used to route supplies down there. I can't see all of them being maxed out. There is no reason that those units should be without any supplies for that long. Even if there was a tax, some supplies should get through.
 

potski

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Here are my observations:

Supply map mode is not very helpful. I would expect it show where and in what amounts supplies are flowing. In other words to see my supply lines. What supply mode is showing is something else or I cant properly read it.

I would expect units in case of shortage to get partial supply. In other words, available supply to be distributed through my divisions. What I see mostly however is that division is either in full supply or totally out of it.

On picture below, you can see how unhelpful and confusing supply mode of map is:
supply.jpg


As I sat, I would expect it to show, where and how much of supplies flow. But it clearly is not the case. Cavalry division in Beping is in full supply, province have high throughput, demand and some local supply. Provinces in green to the north have some local supply but no throughput. Now tell me if this map makes some sense to you since to me it does not give the slightest idea of my supply network and situation or what is going on with supply altogether. Note also green provinces to the east with no units but green color. I have no idea what those colors on map should represent.

This picture shows also another problem I came across. Border to the east is one with Manchuria, my puppet and ally. As long as my units were on Manchurian territory they could trace supply to my provinces in Korea and via ports back to Japan. However once my troops crossed border and took enemy port, all supply through Korea ceased, even if that new port cant satisfy all my needs. That makes no sense of course.

Can I try to explain that map:

1. Provinces that have no colourings show where there are no supplies, no throughput of supplies and no demand for supplies. These provinces form no part of the supply network.

- These include all of the provinces on the north of the Manchukuo border. This tells us that no supply flows from the supply centre that covers Manchukuo (which is actually in Korea). Supplies flow from the naval bases in Korea across the border into Manchukuo. They can flow across the border into occupied Shanxi territory, but are currently not doing so.

- There are three coastal provinces near the naval base at Dagu which also have no supplies flowing through them.​

2. There is a province within the Shanxi occupied territory which has a supply centre icon

- This is at Tianjin. This tells us that this area is an independent overseas supply network. All JAP and MAN units in this area will be shown as supplied from Tianjin.

- A supply network cannot draw supplies from another supply network. It can only draw supplies from a naval base which is supplied by convoy from the capital. Tianjin draws its supplies from the level 7 naval base at Dagu.​

3. Provinces which are coloured brown are those where the local supply is less than the supply draw demand, so less than optimal supplies flow through the provinces.

- This includes Tianjin and Beiping. Since an adjoining province to Tianjin is uncoloured, and other adjoining provinces to these two are outside of the borders of the supply network, then all supplies from Dagu flow through Tianjin and all flow through Beiping.​

4. All of the units of the North China Expeditionary Army and their Manchukuo allies are north of Beiping, except for one HQ at the naval base Dagu.

- All of your forces rely on their supplies coming through Beiping​

5. The province tooltip for Beiping shows a supply draw demand of approximately 114 supplies per day, but a throughput of only 18.

- The overall throughput to the whole North China Expeditionary Army and it's Manchukuo allies is less than 20% of what the units are demanding.

- This does not mean that the units are consuming 20% of what they require. The demand consists of what is required to try to bring their local supply up to 30 days worth of supplies, not what they actually consume.​

6. In the hills to the north, along the Mongolian border, the provinces are coloured green. This means that the supply draw exactly matches the throughput, in other words optimal supply. These are furthest away from Dagu and are low infra, nevertheless there appears to be a healthy supply situation here.

- Units carry supplies with them. As the units advance the local supply stockpile also advances. The units in the north still have enough of the supply stockpile they started the operation with (while they were still in Manchukuo) to keep themselves supplied. If there was sufficient preparation, and a good supply network in Manchukuo, they should have started the campaign with 30 days of supplies. They have still not exhausted these supplies, that is why the provinces are green. They are not getting more supplies from Tianjin/Dagu than other units closer to Beiping.

- The units in the hills will still be trying to replenish the supplies they are using by drawing supplies from Tianjin/Dagu to bring them back to 30 days worth of local supplies. Since the throughput in Beiping is so low then they will not be successful in maintaining themselves in supply for very long. Shortly the local supplies will run low, and the provinces will change to brown colouring, or even red.​

7. Beiping is coloured brown, but does not have any red hatching on it. This means this is not a bottleneck.

- The amount of infra in a province limits the total number of supplies that can flow through it each day. The infra in Beiping (and also in Tianjin) is not limiting the supply flows. Something else is preventing sufficient supplies flowing to the North China Exp. Army.

- We cannot see the tooltips that would come from Tianjin, but we should see that the supply throughput there is 18.51. This accounts for the supply tax in moving supplies from Tianjin to Beiping. And in the naval base at Dagu it should be 18.62 plus the supplies being consumed by the HQ there.

- The limit on the overall supplies flowing through the network originates at Dagu​

8. Dagu is shown coloured blue, indicating that it has more supplies than is required. This is probably a temporary surplus. To the south along the Yellow River there is a Manchukuo Division, which is now surrounded and cut-off from receiving any supplies from Dagu. Some supplies from Dagu will have been flowing south down the coast to this Division, but the supply network will adjust to this change.

- Dagu is a level 7 naval base, so the maximum throughput of supplies that can be brought through it each day is 28. This is about a quarter of the total supplies that the North China Expeditionary Army are demanding through Beiping.

- Without the tooltip for Dagu we cannot tell the exact throughput of the naval base, but this is likely to be close to 28. Japan is unlikely to have any techs in 1937 which boost the throughput.​

9. There are about 20 provinces in the occupied area in Shanxi which are part of the supply network.

- With a daily supply tax of 0.11 for each of these, over 2 supplies per day are being used for the tax. This is a significant amount, it cannot be ignored, but is not unusually high. This is because the supply lines are not very long.

- As the front moves further from Dagu, then a greater proportion of the supplies will be used in supply tax, further reducing the amount available for the troops​

10. Three provinces in the centre of the front have red hatching on them, showing that the infra. is limiting the throughput there.

- The position of some of these means that a whole group of units in the centre of the front are not receiving very much new supplies each day. They have already exhausted their own local supplies, and are probably now out of supply. Further progress in the centre of the front will be difficult.

- When the infra limits the throughput of supplies to create a bottleneck, the additional supplies which are trying to pass through that province are lost. So JAP/MAN are already losing some supplies in this way, in addition to the supplies used in the supply tax. Without the tooltips for these provinces I cannot tell how much.

- The infra inland is quite low, but it is possible that the problem with these three provinces is temporary, caused by damage to the infra in those provinces by recent combat there. The province screens and infra. map mode should show this.​

11. There is a large local stockpile of fuel at Beiping (184).

- Since most of the JAP/MAN units will not use fuel they will not be demanding any fuel. This fuel was probably stockpiled there by Shanxi and captured by JAP when the province changed hands.

- With this stockpile, plus a flow of fuel available through Dagu, no JAP/MAN units are likely to run short of fuel during this campaign.​


Having got all of that information from the supply mapmode itself. We can add some more general observations:

A. There are at least five HQs visible on the map in Shanxi occupied territory. These consume supplies. Higher HQs could remain just over the border in Manchukuo, and still be in range of the Divisions. As the front advances, then this is less likely, and you need to make a decision between the combat and other advantages provided by the HQs, and the limited supplies. JAP starts the game with a fairly low-level of HQs, compared to the western majors (it has virtually no Corps). Adding Corps to the heirarchy (which in the forum I have generally seen as a "good thing") actually adds to your overall supply consumption in an offensive. In some other countries, I estimate the supply usage of a large force, say an Army Group, to be increased by 10-20% by all of the HQs. It is probably not a good idea in this campaign to give JAP alot of Corps HQs which need to remain close to the front and consuming supplies that might otherwise go to the combat Divisions.

B. There are air units in the air base at Beiping. These draw fuel and supplies. Although the fuel is not a problem, the supplies are. A decision needs to be made whether it is better to keep all of the air units based at Dalian in Manchukuo, rather than Beiping. From Dalian they are unable to reach the north of Shanxi. However, the CAG's with the carrier fleet off the coast can, so there seems little reason to move the TACs to Beiping.

C. There seems to be a lack of combat units close to Dagu. At the minute some of the Shanxi units are concentrating on destroying the Manchukuo Division which has been cut-off. If they turn their attention towards Beiping/Tianjin/Dagu it seems inevitable that the supply lines will be cut. This is not such a bad thing. An overseas supply network must have a naval base available to provide supplies. If it does not, say if Dagu is recaptured by Shanxi, then the supply system will cancel this area as a supply network, the supply centre icon at Tianjin will disappear, and the occupied territory which remains will become part of the Korea/Manchukuo supply network again. In the short-term much of the North China Exp. Army might be out of supply, but in several days the supply flow over the border should be re-established.

D. The infra. level along the coast is much better than further inland. In addition, as others have already mentioned there is a level 10 naval base to the south at Qingdao in Nat.China. The better strategy might be not to attempt a broad-front attack into Shanxi along the whole Manchukuo border, but instead concentrate a smaller and perhaps fairly mobile force along the coast to capture Beiping/Tianjin/Dagu, then push south as fast as possible towards Qingdao, either to capture it, or link up with an amphibious landing there. Once you control Dagu and Qingdao you will have a daily supply to your troops of 68, instead of the 28 from Dagu alone. This should be sufficient to defeat Shanxi and then carry out a campaign against Nat.Chi and Comm.Chi forces further inland.

E. However, you can improve things yourself here in a 36 campaign. The Marco Polo Bridge Decision can be delayed well into 1937. This gives you time to build some level 1 naval bases to be deployed along the coast at provinces other than Dagu. This will help your supplies slightly (though this is very little compared to capturing Qingdao). You can also use amphibious landings at a couple of points along the Shanxi coast, the units which are landed in this way bring with them supplies, so don't immediately start consuming supplies from Dagu.

F. If the amphibious forces are based in Korea, or Japan, before the invasion, then they won't be using supplies along the Manchukuo/Shanxi border. If you get the North China Expeditionary Army in place as early as possible, and ensure it is not too large for the Manchukuo supply network, then the supply system should be able to build-up stockpiles of 30 days of supplies along the border. Rushing in Divisions, or even whole Corps/Armies, just before the invasion will not give the supply system enough time to build-up the maximum possible supplies for them all. Patient preparations are important before any major campaign.

F. Unfortunately, you cannot build any level 1 air bases in Manchukuo to extend the range of your TACs, as you can only improve provinces that are controlled by you. But if you capture Jinan just south of the Yellow River as early as possible in your operation to capture Qingdao and link up with your forces in the north, then Jinan will draw supplies from Qingdao and it will not be a problem. From there your TACs will have the range to extend over much of central China.
 

Darksaber501st

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The thing that really has been confusing me is the distances that the AI makes supply travel:

For example: I'm playing as Great Britain, starting in 1936. In India, all of my supply is coming from a province called Salem, a landlocked province without and airfield in the southern part of the subcontinent. Most of my units are up near Nepal/Bhutan or close to the Siam border. There are a half-dozen closer locations with either airfields or naval bases or both (such as Calcutta) where supply bases could be much, much closer to the actual units.

I guess my question is: Why does the AI place supply dumps so far away from everything else, and wouldn't it make more sense to
1) Have supply dumps in provinces with airfields/ports (again, Salem has neither)
2) Have the AI put supply points closer to troops and/or be allowed to place it manually.

Another frustrating example is when I invaded Italian-controlled Ethiopia with 2 Mech Divisions of 3 brigades each. They took 1 province in combat each and then were out of supplies and fuel, and I couldn't air-supply them for some reason, and I told them to move back to my territory and they couldn't because they were out of supply, etc. The supply system seems somewhat well-crafted, and I think the designers really tried to do a good job with it, but it's really painful sometimes.
 

Ex Mudder

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During my invasion of scotland i saw some strange things with supply. The supplies were coming in from 3 ports. Scapa Flow, Aburdine(sp) and that one just north of Edinburgh. Logic would seem to dictate that the units would be supplied from one of these 3 ports. Instead all their 'supplied from's were reading a provience in the dead middle of the highlands, a mountains area surrounded by mountains.

While the idea of a suppy depot outside their incoming ports seems logical somewhat, it doesnt seem logical to locate it in the middle of the mountains and as far away from water as possible. Though I wonder why they would need a seperate supply depot away from the ports considering the size of England is not that big. Especially in southern scotland

I saw something similar in India. My divisions were supplied from the middle of India, not any of the ports. I wonder if the game makes a supply depo equidistant from all your controlled ports and adds up the inflow from all your ports.

Granted, the depo in question had thousands of fuel but no supplies. Did you see the same?
 

Ex Mudder

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I still find it hard to understand why my only unit in Stuttgart - a HQ XXXX - can be out of supply for several months. Everything is static. I'm in '37 and slowly building up my army. Infrastructure is IIRC 100% in most of Germany.

I've had my theater command (renamed CONUS HQ) as the US go in and out of supply, sitting in Oklahoma. Poor MacArthur.

I think the game misses smaller units. Usually when a unit goes out of supply during peacetime it is alone somewhere.
 

Ex Mudder

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Yet, the division is a reserve division on the map .. it should have a Supply Demand of the 0.54 mentioned earlier .. plus the tax of 0.1 .. so .. 0.64 Supply Demand.

Yet the provence is demanding the full 2.11 .. which is for a full strength division + tax.

Supply needs for reserve divisions is not calculated properly. Verified this as the US in '36 GC. Hopefully it will be fixed in 1.2
 

Ex Mudder

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- This does not mean that the units are consuming 20% of what they require. The demand consists of what is required to try to bring their local supply up to 30 days worth of supplies, not what they actually consume.

I've seen this as the US in '36 GC. Every time I deploy a unit, supply demand spikes until a 30 day supply has been established. This is why I deploy everything to Washington DC now. No supply tax, no 30 day stockpile to build up.

Often happens when I am rearranging my forces. Between Strat Redeploy and building up stockpliles in their new homes (usually naval bases), my supply demand goes nuts.

This is also the reason the reserves supply bug is so annoying. The AI tries to build up a 30 day supply for a full strength unit, not a reserve unit.
 

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Thanks for that very helpful walkthrough, potski. I was about to post a similar thread bemoaning my lack of supply in my Sino-Japanese campaign, but you've given me some ideas that really help.
 

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It's definitely not working right

This issue is driving me a bit mad, but they'll fix it!

I'd like to be able to see the number of days of supply a unit has remaining in it's 30 day supply.

I'd also like to be able to set manual convoys to create supply dumps at mainland ports (i.e. connected to my home nation via a land link) to support anticipated offensives.
 

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Eventually the supply concept will sink in.

It's not broken.

Remember:

supply_transfer_cost
supply_throughput
force to space ratio
reinforcment draw takes longer

Sorry, as long as peacetime USA cannot supply the single HQ unit in San Francisco in 1936, it is broken. This is not a "concept" problem.

As long as peacetime Germany cannot supply a HQ unit in Stuttgart in 1936, it is broken. (Sometimes Stuttgart is fine and I get the problem in Munich or Cologne -- still ridiculous). This is not a "concept" problem.

I don't remember any veteran ever stating that they feared a posting in San Fran due to the possibility of starving to death, as happens 3-4 months each year in my games.
 

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Fantastic post potski
 

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Thanks a lot potski, now with your explanation that map mode makes a lot more sense to me :)
This is worth its place in manual I would say :)

As for your tactical remarks, whole North China Exp. Army was running on AI. I wanted to see what it can do since this whole command chain system, which parts can be turned to AI giving it orders was in fact highlight of this game for me. In fact it was reason I got this game at the end. Was dreaming for years exactly about this while playing other games. However as you might see from screenshot it is so far bit of a disappointment. While experimentating with AI I have found that I can improve its behaviour by giving AI command to lower HQs, giving them individual axis of advance instead of goals. However its still far from been satisfying. AI can behave OK if it have numerical advantage against enemy, but in other cases it tends to make gaps and is unable to keep coherent front line. It also cant handle stacking penalty for aircraft, using all it have in the same province.
 

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Sorry, as long as peacetime USA cannot supply the single HQ unit in San Francisco in 1936, it is broken. This is not a "concept" problem.

As long as peacetime Germany cannot supply a HQ unit in Stuttgart in 1936, it is broken. (Sometimes Stuttgart is fine and I get the problem in Munich or Cologne -- still ridiculous). This is not a "concept" problem.

I don't remember any veteran ever stating that they feared a posting in San Fran due to the possibility of starving to death, as happens 3-4 months each year in my games.

amen brotha! Tell the fanboys to stick it.
I'm okay with "its broken but they'll fix it", but when it reaches "its not broken" proportions, that's when you gotta call them out. Static units will run out of supply with direct landlink to capital when the player has 99999 supply stockpiled. If thats not broken I don't know what is.

BTW I tuned my supply throughput to 1000x the normal rate and I still had supply problems for static units. Obviously its the supply routing AI that is BROKEN!.
 

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I have seen Italy overrun Egypt (they made a puppet out of Ethiopia), so the fighting was taken place in Somalia and Kenya. Since this is British territory I believe that the British would be able to supply me, but nope.

So now I'm standing with an army that cant move since the AI of either nation is making a convey to Mombasa...
 

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Nice post Potski. It really explains lots of things.

PS: Is there a way to see how many "supply days" a division still has?

That's something that has seemed to change that I don't like. Once there are no supplies in the province (you can view that in the supply mapmode), your unit is DONE. From 100% supply to 0% in one day. That wouldn't be so bad if it didn't render your units largely useless in combat and unable to attack even an empty province.

I built about 15 ports and finally managed to supply my troops in China in the game I mentioned earlier, but it's definitely a hassle. I miss the 'offensive' button from HoI 2; it would be really nice to take my armor back to a depot, load up and then have them blitzkrieg without stalling if they hit a patch without supplies. Sometimes you can have a nice run where you take enemy supplies and keep driving, but if you go into some empty provinces or go into puppet territory, you can usually forget about it. Shouldn't supply decay a little bit slower? Having a unit go from 100% supply to 0% and completely useless in combat in an hour (from 23:00 to 0:00) seems a little unrealistic. I've had times where I won a battle over the same province 20 times, but the unit ran out of supply before it could move into the empty province vacated by retreating armies. It'd be nice if they:
a) put the 'offensive' button back in, letting a unit load up on x days for supply at double the cost
b) allow supply to decay slowly over a period of time, rather than instantly crippling a unit
or
c) limit the 'out of supply' penalties on a unit, in particular their inability to attack or move into empty enemy provinces