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psyghamn

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It is rare to see Iberian Catholics succeed, but it is way too common to see France or the HRE owning a good chunk of Iberia. Was it a fluke of history that these nations never made war against Iberian muslims, or was there a good reason for it. How would you simulate it in the game?
 

Pjstaab

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Historically the gist is that the Spanish kingdoms had the muslims under control but in CKII the muslims can easily beat them leading to the HRE or France coming in.
 

MasterOfGrey

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Historically the Spanish had them under control for 1 reason; in-fighting.

The Abbadids expanded north at the expense of the Aftasids whenever the Spanish kingdoms ended up fighting them, and at the expense of much of their own wealth. By the time the Abbadids and Spanish had wiped out the Aftasids and developed a mutual border the Abbadids had exhausted much of the wealth they had on hand which they'd brought with them from Arabia. This indirectly led to a powerful Portugal and Leon once the now expanded and strengthened Spanish kingdoms had acquired half of the Aftasids land (there's some complicated steps in between but that's the gist of it). They then tore the Abbadids apart, albeit slowly, step by step, all the way to Gibraltar.

However, in the game the Aftasids have two very powerful duchies, and the structure of the CB mechanics in the game make it easier for them to maintain their specific territorial boundaries. Also as they're one of the strongest and the AI isn't particularly good at small-scale opportunism the Abbadids rarely play their historical role here.

In the east the situation is just a mess but that's historical. The solid Aftasid block though, which tends to have the Abbadids expand smoothly around them to meet christendom in the east, results in a rather a-historical balance of power where those two work together (especially to defend v holy wars) and tend to contribute greatly to the dismantling of the Spanish kingdoms, when historically the two powers almost never assisted each other.
 

No idea

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However, the Christian kingdoms were also divided. Except for a few times (the one at Las Navas comes to my mind, an even then, the King of Leon wanted nothing to see with attacking the Almohads) they were warring among themselves almost as much as fighting muslims. It is difficult to say why the Christians Kingdoms prevailed. I think the fact that in “their DNA” was the desire of “reconquering”, while muslims kingdoms didn’t have the same desire, can explain it in part. A few decades after Las Navas (1212) the "Reconquista" was virtually finished. The only muslim state was Granade, which was left to exist for two centuries more. Of course, this is difficult to implement in the game.
 

Hootieleece

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As a player I notice whenever I take an active interest in atleast defending the AI Christians in iberia they tend to win.If I play one of the Kingdoms they win.If AI is left to itself......Christians get Rofl stomped.

In a current game.....count of macon>King of France hopefully HRE. I help defend the Christians but don't fight any offensive wars against moslems.(I did win the Crusade for Aragon but King of Aragon got the territory.Not that I was unhappy with that outcome)
 

unmerged(362834)

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One change can rebalance wars between christian kingdoms and muslim emirs in andalucia... taïfas should never join each other in offensive holly wars!

Muslim emirs prefered to see christians winning than to see their muslim neighbors controling more provinces... and getting stronger!

Galicia doesn't stand a chance if aftasid and abbadid team up in an offensive holly war, especially prior to holly orders!

I've been reading this suggestion endless times in these forum... but why should anyone care about something already sold !
 

MasterOfGrey

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Mmm, I think if you just changed the setup so larger taifas were more inclined to attack a rival muslim state that's in a war rather than assist it, it would work quite well.
 

Grubnessul

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Maybe make the AI more reluctant to march their armies off far away outside crusades?
 

TheStrangerOrg

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in game the spanish kingdoms were losing because it seems like the muslims are far better at cooperating, the kingdoms are often at war with each other, tech advantage for muslims, before the previous patches also always a jihad for one of their kingdom tiers, muslim invasion op etc etc

if you play as a player, its so easy and you conquer all of muslim spain before 1100...
 

Tamas

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I think this is closely related to stuff like Fatimids conquering in far-away places and such: the way CBs are done, it is far, far easier to go against someone of an other religion, than a same-religioned neighbor of yours.
 

Grubnessul

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It is rare to see Iberian Catholics succeed, but it is way too common to see France or the HRE owning a good chunk of Iberia. Was it a fluke of history that these nations never made war against Iberian muslims, or was there a good reason for it. How would you simulate it in the game?

I agree, that it would be nice if the reconquista would happen under the leadership of the Iberian Christian kingdoms. Historically these kingdoms did receive help from crusaders from other Christian kingdoms (IIRC most commonly France).
However if for some reason the Iberian Christian kingdoms are overrun early, then I can see France, the HRE, England etc. lead crusades to liberate the Iberian Christians. However maybe this should lead to these kingdoms being reestablished, but that could be under a French or German dynasty.
 

hannibal_barca

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Well I noticed that after 1.08 it doesn't happen as often that HRE or France comes in. They might grab a few provinces but nothing like before. I had the Almohads conquer right up to Paris in a nasty blitz, they were unstoppable and then imploded.
 

khedas

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It is difficult to say why the Christians Kingdoms prevailed. I think the fact that in “their DNA” was the desire of “reconquering”, while muslims kingdoms didn’t have the same desire, can explain it in part. A few decades after Las Navas (1212) the "Reconquista" was virtually finished. The only muslim state was Granade, which was left to exist for two centuries more. Of course, this is difficult to implement in the game.

The Christians prevailed because the vast majority of the population of the peninsula remained Christian, even under Islamic rule. Moorish rulers dared not to tax more than a little their subjects for fear they would quickly support their northern brethren, and also because the Mulsum ruler could not use them reliably as levies.

Conversely, Christians could use the areas they conquered almost immediately (except for some revolts when the people found out how much more taxes they were going to pay).

There is a reason why only the steady influx of Mooroccan manpower into Iberia delayed the Reconquista.

In CK2, all Islamic lands in Iberia are Sunni, which is just wrong. They should all be Catholic, with the possible exception of Cordoba in the latter scenarios.
 
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psyghamn

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I've seen proposals to create and iberian only holy order to hold off muslim invasions. I think that would prevent the instant destruction of iberian catholics that you sometimes see.
The infighting between iberian catholics is a result of all of the leaders in the 1066 start having claims on everyone else's kingdom. Perhaps to encourage more infighting among the muslims the iberian muslims should be given claims on each other's duchies. I don't know how historical that would be, but it might help.
Also a Khedas said, Muslims have an inherent mechanical advantage when conquering christians because of the Jizya tax, This allows them to make use of christian lands much more quickly than Christians can use conquered muslim lands. Making less of Iberia muslim at the start would help immensely.
 

grisamentum

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Why should we keep the HRE out of Iberia? Charles V was King of Aragon, Castile, and Leon in 1516 and HRE in 1530. Born in 1500. Very close to game's time period so not really ahistorical by game-end.
 

grisamentum

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I've seen proposals to create and iberian only holy order to hold off muslim invasions. I think that would prevent the instant destruction of iberian catholics that you sometimes see.
The infighting between iberian catholics is a result of all of the leaders in the 1066 start having claims on everyone else's kingdom. Perhaps to encourage more infighting among the muslims the iberian muslims should be given claims on each other's duchies. I don't know how historical that would be, but it might help.
Also a Khedas said, Muslims have an inherent mechanical advantage when conquering christians because of the Jizya tax, This allows them to make use of christian lands much more quickly than Christians can use conquered muslim lands. Making less of Iberia muslim at the start would help immensely.

The jizya argument is completely wrong. There is a "wrong religion" penalty for decades, which easily outweighs any taxes earned.

Naturally, the penalty goes away when the province converts... but so does the bonus!

Jizya tax penalty almost never makes up for the total loss after the conquest.
 

Me_

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Why should we keep the HRE out of Iberia? Charles V was King of Aragon, Castile, and Leon in 1516 and HRE in 1530. Born in 1500. Very close to game's time period so not really ahistorical by game-end.

Because (among other things) that (i.e. the example given) was a result of successful marriage policy with strong Aragon and Castille present; while in game all we see is HRE/French crusades with Spanish Christians being nothing more than pushovers.

The jizya argument is completely wrong. There is a "wrong religion" penalty for decades, which easily outweighs any taxes earned.

Naturally, the penalty goes away when the province converts... but so does the bonus!

Jizya tax penalty almost never makes up for the total loss after the conquest.
Isn't wrong religion -75% and jizya +25%? That means jizya doubles the income from wrong religion holdings.

Hopefuly the Reconquista DLC wll fix Iberia a bit.