Keen's HOI1 Bug of the Week...

[unmerged(61236)]

Hey all,

Just thought I would pass along a screwy bug with HOI1's convoy system...

The convoy system, which we are all aware has many bugs, has a very subtle bug that many may not be aware of.

I ran into this one myself as I was approaching Japan in at the end of a US game. Just as I was approaching the shores, I kept finding myself engaged in convoy intercept actions, due to the swarm of several hundred Japanese convoy ships buzzing in and out of Japan's ports.

At that point, my navies were high-end, and generally consisted of 12 flotilla clusters, with 3 aircraft carriers (loaded up with planes) supported by a battleship, some cruisers, destroyers, and a single submarine.

As I marauded around the Japanese coast, I kept getting into convoy battles. What is really screwy is that these unescorted convoys were taking signficant bites out of the health and organization of the capital ships in my fleets! After 4 or 5 convoy intercepts, I had to start moving away from the coasts, as my aircraft carriers were getting below 60% (from a base of 100)!

The convoys take significant bites out of the navies that attack them, even when they're not escorted. This is part of the reason why the AI players can't keep their navies afloat, as they tend to maraud around the coastline fighting endless convoy battle after battle (that and the fact that they never go back to port for more org).

The real kicker is that the game takes as much health off of a destroyer flotilla as it does from a capital ship. And to make matters worse, your admiral doesn't even get any XP for all this fighting! So watch out when you're cruising around enemy coasts with expensive fleets, as that merchantmarine might have your number!

- Commander Keen -

 

[Dr Rare]

Great information and explanation CK!

Although i was aware of the "killer convoys" i have never thought about what affects it would have on invasion in game,its good to be forewarned!!!!

thanks!!!

Dr Rare

P.s There is a Japansurrenders.txt available in this forum for Hoi1,which may well solve this problem,but i havnt had a chance to test it yet as i am in TGW land at the moment testing the mini-mod v.3 files!!!

 

[unmerged(46903)]

Not to mention the 23:00 convoy bug

Say you want to ship a truckload of Oil and supplies from Antwerp to Plymouth but the Royal Navy has 90 ships in the channel? A regular convoy of 48 Merchants and 12 escorts running this route would take such heavy attrition losses that you would be out of merchants and escorts in less than a week, however with the 23:00 bug just set your convoy up with as many merchants as you have at 23:00 hours. At 24:00 hours it sails the supplies across the channel and at 24:00/ 0:00 hours you can remove all the ships in the convoy.

The chance of this convoy being intercepted is minimal and it only needs to run once a week or so at 23:00 hours. You too can send convoys in the face of overwhelming AI naval superiority.

 

[JoeGiavani]

The grievance listed in the OP is WAD.

 

[comac]

I have no issues with the so-called 'Killer Convoy' bug and think that it creates some realistic resource management issues for players. In the Commanders example, the attrition that he is seeing could just as easily be the result of Japanese defensive minefields as invisible merchant ships. Keeping a fleet on station in hostile waters is not trouble free even when sea control seems absolute. HOI however, does not model naval mines or marine casualties due to breakdown and accident. Real warships spend a lot of time in port refitting and repairing even in wartime and killer convoys can force this effect on the active player.

HOI gives the players a free ride as far as naval wear and tear, attrition and post-operations refits is concerned. Killer convoys redress this somewhat and the effect is valid if the mechanism might appear flawed. I agree with JoeGiavani.

Cheers

Chris

 

[unmerged(61236)]

My complaint wasn't that the convoys were wearing down my ships, only that it was wearing down my ships evenly, despite their size, power, or value. I can see crusier and destroyer units taking a beating, but when an aircraft carrier is half-destroyed as a result of 5 convoy encounters, I see that as a bit much...

But you do have a point, in that the majority of these bugs simply add more challenge to the game, as they can be overcome. I was just irked at the time for having to bring my aircraft carriers (and their associated planes) back halfway across the Pacific to get cleaned up.

- Commander Keen -

 

[DivineShadow]

Hey all,

Just thought I would pass along a screwy bug with HOI1's convoy system...

The convoy system, which we are all aware has many bugs, has a very subtle bug that many may not be aware of.

I ran into this one myself as I was approaching Japan in at the end of a US game. Just as I was approaching the shores, I kept finding myself engaged in convoy intercept actions, due to the swarm of several hundred Japanese convoy ships buzzing in and out of Japan's ports.

At that point, my navies were high-end, and generally consisted of 12 flotilla clusters, with 3 aircraft carriers (loaded up with planes) supported by a battleship, some cruisers, destroyers, and a single submarine.

As I marauded around the Japanese coast, I kept getting into convoy battles. What is really screwy is that these unescorted convoys were taking signficant bites out of the health and organization of the capital ships in my fleets! After 4 or 5 convoy intercepts, I had to start moving away from the coasts, as my aircraft carriers were getting below 60% (from a base of 100)!

The convoys take significant bites out of the navies that attack them, even when they're not escorted. This is part of the reason why the AI players can't keep their navies afloat, as they tend to maraud around the coastline fighting endless convoy battle after battle (that and the fact that they never go back to port for more org).

The real kicker is that the game takes as much health off of a destroyer flotilla as it does from a capital ship. And to make matters worse, your admiral doesn't even get any XP for all this fighting! So watch out when you're cruising around enemy coasts with expensive fleets, as that merchantmarine might have your number!

- Commander Keen -

Sounds like something that needs fixing like that whored air stacking penalty.

 

[comac]

Like the air-stacking penalty, the naval-stacking penalty sucks. But on the other hand, it's a bit easier to exploit, I've had three-sub stacks of U-Boats kill four times their number out of a 120 unit Royal Navy stak in TGW. Got two boats out intact too and will be happy with a 12:1 kill ratio. It's beyond My pathetic abilities to fix though. DevineShadow, you did the airstacking fix right? If so, many thanks.
Cheers

 

[unmerged(61236)]

Ya, A naval stacking fix would make the AI a heck of a lot more effective in the water.

There are 3 issues which prevent the AI from running a successful navy:

1.) Naval stacking penalty (as it tends to dogpile 80 - 90% of its navies in one place)

2.) Inability to recognize low Org values for flotillas, therefore nothing ever goes back to port to re-group

3.) The convoy bug, which eats away at the navies. This is usually a very minor concern, except when combined with #1, as a navy stacked 120 deep will take damage across all 120 ships, regardless of the size of the convoy encountered.


In many ways this is similar to the problems the AI has with air power. The only way to give the AI a fair chance with navies would be to eliminate the #1 problem and completely remove the naval stacking penalties. Otherwise, as comac has pointed out, small groups of ships, or even small clusters of fighters, will decimate UK fleets in the channel, or Japanese/US naval pileups in the pacific.

Along the same vein, would it also be possible to extend the command capabilities of the AI admirals so they could efficiently command more than 12 flotillas? If raising the command cap isn't possible, is it possible to lower the count "value" for each flotilla to a number less than 1? (eg. each ship counts as 0.5 for a total command value of 24?).

- Commander Keen -