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Lordling said:
Well Olav had you and Dell interchangeable for turns 3 and 4, so I guess that means you're up now if you want to be up now.
Great to see that you're going to play a turn Scipio.
Round 6 - Updated
1. Olav (done)
2. Brian Roastbeef (done)
3. Lordling (up)
4. Dell (on deck)
5. Dark Scipio
6. Any others?
I was thinking a bit more about what to do with the Ottomans. As we have Abbas as Shah right now, why not use his excellent diplomatic skills to get them friendly and diplovassalize them? War is perhaps cheaper, but we will as mentioned get some more BB and some stability hits, which are quite expensive as we're pretty big now. So my suggestion is to go the peaceful way. If we're lucky, the Ottomans will use the money to convert some provinces. By the way, what's the Ottomans' BB now? If it is around ~20, we could expect some DoWs from Austria against them, so an alliance with OE in that case could get messy.
Of course, even if we have some BB now, I think we should make use of Abbas while he is an army leader. We could try to forceconvert or forcevassalize some large nations, like the Mamluks. I really want to see Al Kharam and Mascate under our control too. Even if Mascate seems a bit worthless now, I believe it will get a CoT there sooner or later.
Good thing that you started building a fleet in Smyrna, Brian. We should expand that a bit more, preferably with warships, as they will become increasingly stronger now.
Great to have you along, Dark Scipio. I have two questions: Do you have any prefered days you want to play on. And will you play as a visitor (this round) or as a regular (the rest of the rounds)?
Of course, even if we have some BB now, I think we should make use of Abbas while he is an army leader. We could try to forceconvert or forcevassalize some large nations, like the Mamluks. I really want to see Al Kharam and Mascate under our control too. Even if Mascate seems a bit worthless now, I believe it will get a CoT there sooner or later.
Good thing that you started building a fleet in Smyrna, Brian. We should expand that a bit more, preferably with warships, as they will become increasingly stronger now.
Great to have you along, Dark Scipio.
I have two questions: Do you have any prefered days you want to play on. And will you play as a visitor (this round) or as a regular (the rest of the rounds)?
That CoT in Samarkand does also look nice...
I also like the idea of forcevassalising and forceconverting the Mamelukes, but getting some provinces might be not worth the BB (except for Alexandria).
I also like the idea of forcevassalising and forceconverting the Mamelukes, but getting some provinces might be not worth the BB (except for Alexandria).
It does look very nice, but taking it is a big problem as Uzbek got their capital there. Will they change capital sometime in the near future? Of course, we could diplovassalize and then diploannex them, but they own a fair amount of worthless (for us) provinces in Siberia. If we're lucky, Russia will take those provinces in the near future.
Getting Alexandria could be a nice goal. The warscore cost for is pretty high, isn't it? I don't know if we could afford taking both Alexandria and forcevassalize or forceconvert, but it is worth a shot if we get a CB against them.
Will they change capital sometime in the near future? Of course, we could diplovassalize and then diploannex them, but they own a fair amount of worthless (for us) provinces in Siberia. If we're lucky, Russia will take those provinces in the near future. Getting Alexandria could be a nice goal. The warscore cost for is pretty high, isn't it? I don't know if we could afford taking both Alexandria and forcevassalize or forceconvert, but it is worth a shot if we get a CB against them.
Olav said:Great to have you along, Dark Scipio.
Not really, but sundays are a bit better.
I would be glad to join the regulars.
Olav said:
In a couple of games I've found Alexandria to be surprisingly cheap with the Mamluks offering it quite freely. Admittedly this was on Mymap so there might be a difference.
Diplo-annexing Uzbek will get us butting heads with Russia... Diplo-annexing the Ottomans will have us bumping against Austria. Expanding through colonization will find us running into Portugal. Going East into India and the islands will probably have us encountering Portugal, maybe the Netherlands and China. Chances are we'll bump into sombody somewhere down the line wherever we go. Its just a question of which path offers us the best reward for what trouble it costs.
Of the options I've seen batted around, going after the Mamluks seems to have the least amount of risk. They're technologically backward, diplomatically isolated now that the Ottomans have been beaten, and in AGCEEP literally created essentially for the purpose of getting the snot beat out of them by the 17th century. We're nearly there and they're still around, allies in fact. I'd say that the only thing that can keep us from Alexandria is the BB cost.
I would suggest that if somebody does decide to attack and force convert the Mamluks as a step toward expansion in that direction, to wait until the Ottomans are our vassals or in some other way finished off. I don't want to connect enemies that we've worked so hard to isolate.
Of the options I've seen batted around, going after the Mamluks seems to have the least amount of risk. They're technologically backward, diplomatically isolated now that the Ottomans have been beaten, and in AGCEEP literally created essentially for the purpose of getting the snot beat out of them by the 17th century. We're nearly there and they're still around, allies in fact. I'd say that the only thing that can keep us from Alexandria is the BB cost.
I would suggest that if somebody does decide to attack and force convert the Mamluks as a step toward expansion in that direction, to wait until the Ottomans are our vassals or in some other way finished off. I don't want to connect enemies that we've worked so hard to isolate.
First thing, I accidentally overplayed a month. I didn't take away the slider choice - rather, the event reminded me I had been overplaying. Since I hadn't saved, I figured I'd just let it slide.
S'just that I was busily trying to diplo-vassalize the Mamluks, and they were sternly refusing.
- - - - -
Ok. 1599, I make our slider choice. Free trade again. Goody.
As Brian said, we were able to recoup our Centralization losses. We got the Reforms of Abbas the Great Event, which moved our capital, gave us +2 centralization, +1000 investment to all tech, a total of +13 tax value spread across different provinces, and -2 stability.
I invested in stability heavily, and the +1000 got us up to LT 16.
I then decided it was time to make the Ottoman Empire our friend. I plied them with gifts, and married off one of our fine Persian daughters, Xerxes, to one of the Ottoman Sultan's sons. In but a few gifts, we were at +200 diplomatic relations.
Also, a new CoT arose in Isfahan, replacing the old Azerbaijan one. Thankfully, I'd been saving merchants for a bit now, and happened to have five sitting around as it happened, giving us our monopoly back.
In 1600, the Ottoman Empire decided it was time to conquer again, and declared war on the Mamluks.
In retrospect, this might not have been the best move.
Shah Abbas had just begun more reforms (we got a choice between domestic advisors and English ones - given that the English made us move 2 steps towards Land, as well as 2 steps towards Offensive, and got us a +4 revolt risk for 48 months, not to mention the stab hit), using domestic advisors, which greatly enhanced the stability of the realm.
To say that the Third Ottoman War was short and brutal was entirely the truth. Persian technology was now on par with the Ottoman brand, the Persian army was larger, better-trained, had superior leaders, and the fanaticism granted to them by the Shi'ite faith all came together to deliver crushing victory after crushing victory. The only Ottoman holdout after two months was Rhodes.
At this time, a new leader arose, leaving us with 4 5-shock generals. I saw this as the golden age of Persia, and, admittedly, I did a fair bit of warring throughout the update. We got some additional badboy, but we have the generalship to warrant it.
The Ottoman Empire was allied to the Kazahk Horde. Shah Abbas led twenty thousand men, five thousand cavalry, and twenty cannon north, and conquered the Kazahk armies entirely, taking every last fortress of theirs. Normally, he would've forced them to submit to the Shi'a, but, instead, seeing their allies decimated, the Ottoman Empire agreed to become a vassal of the Persian Empire, provided that the Kazahk Horde were to obtain a peace as well.
In 1603, the casting of bronze cannons for ships was mastered, and the prowess of the Persian Fleet grew greatly. While often money had been fairly short, and the construction of the Mediterranean Fleet had happened sporadically, this left the Persians with naval prowess comparable to that of many Europeans, and greater than that of most of her neighbours, if not all.
With the Ottomans safely sworn to Shah Abbas, the Shah ordered that they be inducted into the alliance. This, he knew, would keep them safe from the Austrians, who could not be allowed to gain a foothold in Asia.
He then ordered the annexation of Sindh. While this made the Persian Empire look worse in the eyes of many, it gave them more influence in India, and some parts of Sindh were quite wealthy.
A large sum of money was spent on gifts for the Gujarat Sunnis, in order for them to grant the Persian Empire military access. Quite specifically, this would allow them to reach the Portugeuse province of Ormuz in the case of a war. This was forward planning, for the most part - the more Portuguese territory available for them to take, the more they could grab at the peace table.
In 1605, the Mamluks were removed from the alliance, and summarily declared war upon. The Persian generals wasted no time in driving them into Egypt, and, within a few months, the Mamluks were weaked immeasurably. However, Shah Abbas demanded only that they convert to the Shi'ite faith, a move that would both weaken them, and make relations with their neighbours decline. That done, he once again plied them with gifts, stating that now they were no longer heretics, they were surely his friends, and his friends deserved an alliance.
In 1607, the Great Royal Wharf was developed. It is notable that colonists were sent to Mtwaba throughout these proceedings, yet, out of some six or seven colonists sent, only two or three succeeded.
In late 1607, the Mughal Empire converted back to Sunnism. It was noted, as this heresy would make a fine excuse for war. More importantly, they were allied to the Uzbeks, who were already Shi'ite, and possessed Samarkand, a crucial centre of trade. If the Mughal Empire could be warred upon, and the Uzbeks by reason of their alliance, it would be much easier to force the Uzbeks into a vassalization.
On January the 1st, 1608, the Shipyard of Smyrna was begun.
For the rest of the year, Abbas tried to get the Mamluks to pledge loyalty to him, but the memories of war were still raw in their minds, and, despite the humiliating defeat they had suffered, they were not yet willing to acknowledge him as his suzerain, no matter how many gifts he gave them.
In the end of this turn, we're doing great. More lands, more power - we're the third richest state in the world, after China (by a sliver), and Spain (who has about 1.5x our income). 4 awesome generals, the Shi'ite faith is expanding, we own Western Asia. Except for those damn uppity Russians, I suppose. Let's keep relations good with those guys.
I'm in a bit of a hurry (as is obvious from above), but nevertheless, we're at our high point. I know we get poor events after Abbas, so this period of time is the best we're gonna get all game. Even if we get high BB, (into the 30s, even), let's exploit it.
Political Map
Religious Map
S'just that I was busily trying to diplo-vassalize the Mamluks, and they were sternly refusing.
- - - - -
Ok. 1599, I make our slider choice. Free trade again. Goody.
As Brian said, we were able to recoup our Centralization losses. We got the Reforms of Abbas the Great Event, which moved our capital, gave us +2 centralization, +1000 investment to all tech, a total of +13 tax value spread across different provinces, and -2 stability.
I invested in stability heavily, and the +1000 got us up to LT 16.
I then decided it was time to make the Ottoman Empire our friend. I plied them with gifts, and married off one of our fine Persian daughters, Xerxes, to one of the Ottoman Sultan's sons. In but a few gifts, we were at +200 diplomatic relations.
Also, a new CoT arose in Isfahan, replacing the old Azerbaijan one. Thankfully, I'd been saving merchants for a bit now, and happened to have five sitting around as it happened, giving us our monopoly back.
In 1600, the Ottoman Empire decided it was time to conquer again, and declared war on the Mamluks.
In retrospect, this might not have been the best move.
Shah Abbas had just begun more reforms (we got a choice between domestic advisors and English ones - given that the English made us move 2 steps towards Land, as well as 2 steps towards Offensive, and got us a +4 revolt risk for 48 months, not to mention the stab hit), using domestic advisors, which greatly enhanced the stability of the realm.
To say that the Third Ottoman War was short and brutal was entirely the truth. Persian technology was now on par with the Ottoman brand, the Persian army was larger, better-trained, had superior leaders, and the fanaticism granted to them by the Shi'ite faith all came together to deliver crushing victory after crushing victory. The only Ottoman holdout after two months was Rhodes.
At this time, a new leader arose, leaving us with 4 5-shock generals. I saw this as the golden age of Persia, and, admittedly, I did a fair bit of warring throughout the update. We got some additional badboy, but we have the generalship to warrant it.
The Ottoman Empire was allied to the Kazahk Horde. Shah Abbas led twenty thousand men, five thousand cavalry, and twenty cannon north, and conquered the Kazahk armies entirely, taking every last fortress of theirs. Normally, he would've forced them to submit to the Shi'a, but, instead, seeing their allies decimated, the Ottoman Empire agreed to become a vassal of the Persian Empire, provided that the Kazahk Horde were to obtain a peace as well.
In 1603, the casting of bronze cannons for ships was mastered, and the prowess of the Persian Fleet grew greatly. While often money had been fairly short, and the construction of the Mediterranean Fleet had happened sporadically, this left the Persians with naval prowess comparable to that of many Europeans, and greater than that of most of her neighbours, if not all.
With the Ottomans safely sworn to Shah Abbas, the Shah ordered that they be inducted into the alliance. This, he knew, would keep them safe from the Austrians, who could not be allowed to gain a foothold in Asia.
He then ordered the annexation of Sindh. While this made the Persian Empire look worse in the eyes of many, it gave them more influence in India, and some parts of Sindh were quite wealthy.
A large sum of money was spent on gifts for the Gujarat Sunnis, in order for them to grant the Persian Empire military access. Quite specifically, this would allow them to reach the Portugeuse province of Ormuz in the case of a war. This was forward planning, for the most part - the more Portuguese territory available for them to take, the more they could grab at the peace table.
In 1605, the Mamluks were removed from the alliance, and summarily declared war upon. The Persian generals wasted no time in driving them into Egypt, and, within a few months, the Mamluks were weaked immeasurably. However, Shah Abbas demanded only that they convert to the Shi'ite faith, a move that would both weaken them, and make relations with their neighbours decline. That done, he once again plied them with gifts, stating that now they were no longer heretics, they were surely his friends, and his friends deserved an alliance.
In 1607, the Great Royal Wharf was developed. It is notable that colonists were sent to Mtwaba throughout these proceedings, yet, out of some six or seven colonists sent, only two or three succeeded.
In late 1607, the Mughal Empire converted back to Sunnism. It was noted, as this heresy would make a fine excuse for war. More importantly, they were allied to the Uzbeks, who were already Shi'ite, and possessed Samarkand, a crucial centre of trade. If the Mughal Empire could be warred upon, and the Uzbeks by reason of their alliance, it would be much easier to force the Uzbeks into a vassalization.
On January the 1st, 1608, the Shipyard of Smyrna was begun.
For the rest of the year, Abbas tried to get the Mamluks to pledge loyalty to him, but the memories of war were still raw in their minds, and, despite the humiliating defeat they had suffered, they were not yet willing to acknowledge him as his suzerain, no matter how many gifts he gave them.
In the end of this turn, we're doing great. More lands, more power - we're the third richest state in the world, after China (by a sliver), and Spain (who has about 1.5x our income). 4 awesome generals, the Shi'ite faith is expanding, we own Western Asia. Except for those damn uppity Russians, I suppose. Let's keep relations good with those guys.
I'm in a bit of a hurry (as is obvious from above), but nevertheless, we're at our high point. I know we get poor events after Abbas, so this period of time is the best we're gonna get all game. Even if we get high BB, (into the 30s, even), let's exploit it.
Political Map
Religious Map
http://www.savefile.com/files/1340507
1. Olav (done)
2. Brian Roastbeef (done)
3. Lordling (done)
4. Dell (up)
5. Dark Scipio (on deck)
6. Any others?
1. Olav (done)
2. Brian Roastbeef (done)
3. Lordling (done)
4. Dell (up)
5. Dark Scipio (on deck)
6. Any others?
Do you have a landborder with Austria so they can and will declare war upon you when the BB wars hit?
If not, heck, you have no land border with Russia, so there is no real competition if you decide to go on a rampage. Insallah!
If not, heck, you have no land border with Russia, so there is no real competition if you decide to go on a rampage. Insallah!
Great to see that we're finally on our way toward getting that much needed shipyard. Good idea sticking it in Smyrna, particularly as you were able to get it converted. With our wealth we can have a 100 ship fleet in there before long.
Ottomans don't look like they've been able to get anywhere on the conversions, so we'll need to give them some time, and maybe a little money. Khiva is coming along nicely though.
The wars and annexation added some badboy, I'm sure, but you did well overall. You didn't really take any land in battle, so I'm guessing it isn't much of anything that we can't recover from. Like you mentioned, we have a strong monarch and some talented leaders; now is the time to guarantee our dominance of the region.
Herbert West, Austria is just on the other side of the Aegean from Smyrna. Its important that we maintain a navy so that they can't move troops onto our land. If we diploannex the Ottomans, we will border the Austrians at Constantinople. Same thing with Russia, if we annex Khiva, and we already have a border with Portugal.
Ottomans don't look like they've been able to get anywhere on the conversions, so we'll need to give them some time, and maybe a little money. Khiva is coming along nicely though.
The wars and annexation added some badboy, I'm sure, but you did well overall. You didn't really take any land in battle, so I'm guessing it isn't much of anything that we can't recover from. Like you mentioned, we have a strong monarch and some talented leaders; now is the time to guarantee our dominance of the region.
Herbert West, Austria is just on the other side of the Aegean from Smyrna. Its important that we maintain a navy so that they can't move troops onto our land. If we diploannex the Ottomans, we will border the Austrians at Constantinople. Same thing with Russia, if we annex Khiva, and we already have a border with Portugal.
YodaMaster said:
Ooh, yeah. Good thought. I did see a missionary of theirs trying to convert Aleppo toward the end of my last turn. Will an AI country send one of their remaining missionaries if they're slowly losing their supply of them?
Olav, what's your call? Is it kosher to check and see whether the Ottomans are narrow-minded enough to be picking up missionaries?
I'm fairly sure they should have some missionaries - now they're the Shi'ite faith, they are probably going to hit the positive again. We could just wait one turn, and if no conversions have popped up, we don't send money. That's probably easiest.
Seems like nothing is stopping us now. Great to see the Ottomans vassalized and the Mamluks forceconverted. While we still are at a high point, I really think we should see if we could take Al Kharam and Mascate (and Bahrain) from Portugal. The MA you got, Lordling, should make things it easier to get some warscore. Good move. When you start your turn Dell, see if a war against Portugal would be possible. Sure, it will add some BB, but I think it would be worth it. Moreover, regarding BB, I don't want to hit the BB-limit so early in the game, so we shouldn't go on a rampage just yet.
I think the Mamluks are too big for a diplovassalization. A forvevassalization would be easier, I reckon, but then we have to get them out of the alliance again.
As for the Ottomans and converting, we could check their DP sliders and see if they get missionaries. However, as mentioned, they tried to convert Aleppo, so maybe we should wait a little and see if they give it another shot.
I think the Mamluks are too big for a diplovassalization. A forvevassalization would be easier, I reckon, but then we have to get them out of the alliance again.
As for the Ottomans and converting, we could check their DP sliders and see if they get missionaries. However, as mentioned, they tried to convert Aleppo, so maybe we should wait a little and see if they give it another shot.
Safavid Empire 1609 -1614
Abbas was an amazing diplomat as well as a military genious. One medium sized gift to Khiva was enough to increase relations by 160 points and relations were also improved with Uzbek who have gradually been converting their provinces and would be a good addition to our nation. Bad boy was at 17.9 so it seemed sensible to try and stay at peace if possible. We went the last step towards free trade.
There was an additional reason to stay at peace which was that several former Sindh provinces needed financial upgrades and there would be a focus on improving these whenever we had the cash. Early on we gained a conquistador however we didn't really have anywhere to explore however the 2 extra colonists would be useful and the conquistador could be usedto increase our chances of started new colonies. The first three colonists sent to Mtawa had all been successful and it was now granted city status.
Table was chosen as the first site for a now colony as it a wine province, had native that were not aggressive and had the best chances of successful colonisation. The ivory province of Niassa was also chosen as a new colony as it was located next to Mtawa. The local natives were extremely aggressive and the sad choice was taken to force them out of the province to increase our chances of colonising the province.
At various times gifts were sent to our neighbours to improve relations. The start of the year 1612 was marked with a colonial uprising in Niassa and Table and interestingly our colonist sent to Table was still successful. Both revolts would eventually be put down whilst Uzbek joined our glorious alliance. Three attempts at vassalising them were unsuccessful however their leader was also a good diplomat so perhaps in the future it will be successful.
Our land military reached level 17, Table and Niassa are bth level 3 provinces and Mtawa now has a fort. Khiva have a couple of Sunni provinces left whilst the next player may be able to annex the Ottomans and Vassalise Uzbek. Bad boy is down to 16.7
http://www.savefile.com/files/1341457
Abbas was an amazing diplomat as well as a military genious. One medium sized gift to Khiva was enough to increase relations by 160 points and relations were also improved with Uzbek who have gradually been converting their provinces and would be a good addition to our nation. Bad boy was at 17.9 so it seemed sensible to try and stay at peace if possible. We went the last step towards free trade.
There was an additional reason to stay at peace which was that several former Sindh provinces needed financial upgrades and there would be a focus on improving these whenever we had the cash. Early on we gained a conquistador however we didn't really have anywhere to explore however the 2 extra colonists would be useful and the conquistador could be usedto increase our chances of started new colonies. The first three colonists sent to Mtawa had all been successful and it was now granted city status.
Table was chosen as the first site for a now colony as it a wine province, had native that were not aggressive and had the best chances of successful colonisation. The ivory province of Niassa was also chosen as a new colony as it was located next to Mtawa. The local natives were extremely aggressive and the sad choice was taken to force them out of the province to increase our chances of colonising the province.
At various times gifts were sent to our neighbours to improve relations. The start of the year 1612 was marked with a colonial uprising in Niassa and Table and interestingly our colonist sent to Table was still successful. Both revolts would eventually be put down whilst Uzbek joined our glorious alliance. Three attempts at vassalising them were unsuccessful however their leader was also a good diplomat so perhaps in the future it will be successful.
Our land military reached level 17, Table and Niassa are bth level 3 provinces and Mtawa now has a fort. Khiva have a couple of Sunni provinces left whilst the next player may be able to annex the Ottomans and Vassalise Uzbek. Bad boy is down to 16.7
http://www.savefile.com/files/1341457
Securing Table is a good gain - hopefully we will take those other provinces around there before the Netherlands and/or Portugal show up. I guess we get enough settlers now so we could set up some TPs for a cheap landgrab.
Good luck in your turn, Dark Scipio. It's up to you whether you want to declare war on Portugal and take Al Kharam or annex the Ottomans. Personally, while very tempting, I would wait a little with annexing them. First of all, they may convert some of their provinces. Secondly, we will get some BB from it (7-8ish?). However, we should try to annex them before Abbas dies in 1629.
Good luck in your turn, Dark Scipio. It's up to you whether you want to declare war on Portugal and take Al Kharam or annex the Ottomans. Personally, while very tempting, I would wait a little with annexing them. First of all, they may convert some of their provinces. Secondly, we will get some BB from it (7-8ish?). However, we should try to annex them before Abbas dies in 1629.
I see we just nailed LT 17. How close are we to 18? To me that would be the time to try against Portugal, if you want to do it soon.
Hopefully, if we can coordinate stuff, we can make this quick. They must have annexed Lanka by now; will we be able to move some men out there to try and occupy those provinces before they can bring ships and troops to defend them? Any easy African colonies we can occupy, or TPs we can burn (naturally leaving the territory open for our traders and colonists)
Make sure to keep our colonies well defended. Smyrna too. Those are the most likely places that they'll try to make their landings. If we can defeat some of those weak forces of 1,000 or so men that the AI likes to send on overseas missions, we can get some quick warscore. I'm guessing we'll need some 60-70% in order to have much hope of them accepting a peace proposed by us that includes Al Kharam and Mascate.
If either of you guys are looking to go to war soon, I'd wait until just after to try for the cheap TP land grab. Portuguese will just burn 'em anyway. Focus on getting Table over 1,000 first. With some luck and some money, maybe we can get a fortress in there before the war.
Dell, any Ottoman conversions during your go? I'd like to see them mostly converted, or at the very least be able to know that they don't have the missionaries to convert, before we look to annex.
Hopefully, if we can coordinate stuff, we can make this quick. They must have annexed Lanka by now; will we be able to move some men out there to try and occupy those provinces before they can bring ships and troops to defend them? Any easy African colonies we can occupy, or TPs we can burn (naturally leaving the territory open for our traders and colonists)
Make sure to keep our colonies well defended. Smyrna too. Those are the most likely places that they'll try to make their landings. If we can defeat some of those weak forces of 1,000 or so men that the AI likes to send on overseas missions, we can get some quick warscore. I'm guessing we'll need some 60-70% in order to have much hope of them accepting a peace proposed by us that includes Al Kharam and Mascate.
If either of you guys are looking to go to war soon, I'd wait until just after to try for the cheap TP land grab. Portuguese will just burn 'em anyway. Focus on getting Table over 1,000 first. With some luck and some money, maybe we can get a fortress in there before the war.
Dell, any Ottoman conversions during your go? I'd like to see them mostly converted, or at the very least be able to know that they don't have the missionaries to convert, before we look to annex.