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DKM

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Syndicalism is a pseudo communistic labor movement. I said communism because it is generally a communistic government ideology. I've playtested KR and don't like it much overall. Though it has some pretty complex event trees that I think are creative.
Concerning the Western US communist state; it would be more for gameplay. The KR timeline has already broken with reality since WW1 so anything could be possible. I'd pit the Northern States and Canada against the Southern States. While the Western States and Mexico gear up to attack whomever is winning. California as the only state with any population in the west voted Progressive in 1912 than Democrat in 1916. Not that I'm implying the Democratic party is or was sympathetic to communism.
First off, Syndicalism is not a "pseudo-communistic" ideology. It predates Communism. It is more closer to many of the anarchism movements than it is to Communism

Second, when constructing an Alt-history, just because something is different doesn't mean anything can be justified for the lulz. Even in alternate timelines, there is a rhyme and rhythm to everything and a complex series of cause-effect butterflies. Regardless of what many say about "well this one thing happened so I don't see why this other can't", there is still such a thing as difference in scale of plausibility.
 

Undead-Hippie

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Very little of Kaiserreich makes good sense. But that's part of the fun for me. It goes crazy but there's always a kernel of sanity hidden deep in the madness. It's not so much a train going off the rails as it is the train doing multitract drifting. The American civil war is a stupid idea. But it's fun having generals like Patton and Eisenhower fight each other or have Mac Daddy become a totalitarian dictator who cracks down on traitors. Those actions, no matter how stupid, have justification, no matter how flimsy. The Rust Belt has justification for being part of Reed's CSA, just as the South has justification for being part of Long's AUS. The West Coast is just generic secession that can go down either democratic or military rule and even they have justification for wanting to secede from America. They're not "x" for the hell of it. The CSA aren't Syndie for the hell of it and the AUS aren't even close to Fascism much of the time. You can have an American civil war where all the combatants are democracies or you can have one where a brutal military dictatorship is fighting against vicious revolutionaries following a hazy analogue of Stalinism and a South ruled by racist quasi-fascists. The wide spectrum of how things could turn out, as batshit as some of the choices may seem to be, is what make Kaiserreich so fun.
 
G

Gungsong Gungts

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Very little of Kaiserreich makes good sense. But that's part of the fun for me. It goes crazy but there's always a kernel of sanity hidden deep in the madness. It's not so much a train going off the rails as it is the train doing multitract drifting. The American civil war is a stupid idea. But it's fun having generals like Patton and Eisenhower fight each other or have Mac Daddy become a totalitarian dictator who cracks down on traitors. Those actions, no matter how stupid, have justification, no matter how flimsy. The Rust Belt has justification for being part of Reed's CSA, just as the South has justification for being part of Long's AUS. The West Coast is just generic secession that can go down either democratic or military rule and even they have justification for wanting to secede from America. They're not "x" for the hell of it. The CSA aren't Syndie for the hell of it and the AUS aren't even close to Fascism much of the time. You can have an American civil war where all the combatants are democracies or you can have one where a brutal military dictatorship is fighting against vicious revolutionaries following a hazy analogue of Stalinism and a South ruled by racist quasi-fascists. The wide spectrum of how things could turn out, as batshit as some of the choices may seem to be, is what make Kaiserreich so fun.

Agreed. American civil war was my favorite part of KR and I've played nearly every possible side (country + ideology path)

Also, speakin of syndicalism has anyone else read anything by Sorel? Not to get too off topic, but you know...
 

mccarty.geoff

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So a Syndicalist state west of the rockies or in northern Italy is less plausible than a hodge podge "CSA" syndicalist uprising all over the eastern USA. Not to mention the Mongol empire chain of events. Funny how every counter argument shifts to semantics and speculative interpretations of history. My original point was that if the Syndicalist powers of Mexico and Western USA made their attack after North USA/Canada and South USA had weakened one another than that regional war would be much more interesting. Every time I've played outside of North America the CSA won after a ludicrous series of battles that displayed just how bad of an idea it is to deploy an AI without a consolidated regional frontline. In the same vein of argument a Syndie north Italy would assist France against it's swift destruction every game.
 

IconOfEvi

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So a Syndicalist state west of the rockies or in northern Italy is less plausible than a hodge podge "CSA" syndicalist uprising all over the eastern USA. Not to mention the Mongol empire chain of events. Funny how every counter argument shifts to semantics and speculative interpretations of history. My original point was that if the Syndicalist powers of Mexico and Western USA made their attack after North USA/Canada and South USA had weakened one another than that regional war would be much more interesting. Every time I've played outside of North America the CSA won after a ludicrous series of battles that displayed just how bad of an idea it is to deploy an AI without a consolidated regional frontline. In the same vein of argument a Syndie north Italy would assist France against it's swift destruction every game.

You're again straying into universalizing your own experience. It's not even clear whether you're talking HoI4KR, or DHKR. One can speak for the latter here. In that, your "muh balance" in the civil war argument has literally been a thing since I first played KR many years ago. And everyone has complained about the balance of the ACW or the France-German war, one way or another. At least in what I've seen over the years, who wins often has more to do with your personal ideology, as the game files are very transparent. I rarely saw the CSA winning the ACW myself, and with the current build, it's usually the federalists who win. But some versions, I had AUS out on top nearly everytime. And often CSA lost for that reason of a frontline - they usually for some reason let someone drive a wedge to Chicago/Michigan, and with the fall of that, their IC plummets and it's hard to get the momentum back.

Also, again, you don't seem to have played this game at all - why would the Syndicalists be in the West? Again, just because they voted Progressive and then Democrat that one time in that time period does not mean they were suddenly all proto-communists. Like seriously, ffs, you DO KNOW the West was one of the bastions of Republican power for literally decades, right!? No, of course not. And no shit the CSA would be based in the industrial heartlands - where else would they be?! Midwest and some of the East Coast - this was where a lot of industrial might was. So of course unions, along with the CSA's other core power bases, would be at home here. The Midwest was the home of industrial concern politics for a very long time even in OTL. Wisconsin, for example, was home base of the LaFollette's, and even had outright Socialist mayors (of Milwaukee). You're basically construing the politics of back then into a timeframe for today and trying to make it all fit into the mold of "now". Because of that, it won't make sense to you that Wisconsin had Socialist mayors and at the same time had sent up McCarthy as a Senator, and still had the LaFollette's around. Likewise, even if, for argument's sake, the CSA was taken out of the Midwest - they would still not want to work with Canada. The North, especially the Midwest, did not like the British Empire, and were often the most eager recruits when issues would flare up with Britain. So having a royalist Canada aid the North would just be fucking stupid no matter how one construes this.

You don't seem to understand again why the civil war is even happening - and you're also forgetting that while each of these parties has a home base of where they are strong electorally, the Syndicalist Party of the United States and the America First Party are national parties that are capable of winning nationally - their concerns aren't just regionally based. The 2nd ACW actually is a civil war, as each of the factions is fighting for the entire US. If you're going to comment on story and other matters while having only "playtested" it, while understanding literally nothing of the underlying story, go ahead, but you're going to sound foolish. A lot of objections have been thought up of already in some form for the better part of what, a decade now? This mod has been around a very, very long time. KR is not constructed just with "muh gameplay" in mind. There is a fundamental rhyme and reason that underpins the thing, which is why it's still going strong after all these years. So please, for whoever you hold important's sake, please learn what you're talking about.
 

MateuszS

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In terms of United States state in KR lore... what about putting into the lore that they got two crisis' (infamous Great one and second in early 30s) and right at the beginning they get third to make more plausible rising of extreme ideologies and solutions?
 

mccarty.geoff

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Durrr "Muh Fantasy Alternate History Timeline". You sure do get bothered when someone opines about a work of fiction that you have no license too. I don't care about you devotion to this retarded canon. The CSA's hodgepodge spawning all over the map apparently according to misconstrued voting record data ruins gameplay. You might think KR is some kind of actual alternate reality but, I think it's a mod to a grand strategy game. More to the point that it's potential as a more balanced and challenging game is botched by spaghetti scripting and too much focus on an overwhelmingly ridiculous backstory.
 

Undead-Hippie

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Feel free to opine on the work. There's plenty to opine about. The Qing returning to power makes no sense, it's makes terrible sense that Germany would go to Russia to fight their civil war when France is having a war right next door, Japan becomes a bastion of democracy and freedom a bit too easily etc. It's just that your reimagining of the Second Civil War has even less of a grounding in historical fact than the scenario we have now.
 

IconOfEvi

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Durrr "Muh Fantasy Alternate History Timeline". You sure do get bothered when someone opines about a work of fiction that you have no license too. I don't care about you devotion to this retarded canon. The CSA's hodgepodge spawning all over the map apparently according to misconstrued voting record data ruins gameplay. You might think KR is some kind of actual alternate reality but, I think it's a mod to a grand strategy game. More to the point that it's potential as a more balanced and challenging game is botched by spaghetti scripting and too much focus on an overwhelmingly ridiculous backstory.

Wait, why are you here then, if you think this is all retarded? Oh right, you have a proven track record of making people facepalm when you open your mouth and opine about any topic, so why stop now? You again demonstrate you have literally no idea what you're talking about. But as he said, feel free to opine. But no one has to take you seriously.
 

mccarty.geoff

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Thanks for your permission IconOfEvi. May I use the bathroom now? I don't have a problem with civil disagreement like Undead-Hippie's reply. Despite ignoring my emphasised point being game theory rather than historicty. I naturally take offense with some nobody telling me to piss off after simply stating that the ACW is a clusterfeck. Whatever your personality problems are or how someone's statement might affect you emotionally try to remain polite. Otherwise, some annoying turd (like me) will indulge your rudeness.
 

Undead-Hippie

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If it doesn't have even an inkling of a basis in plausible alt-historicity, it's of no use to the mod which is designed mostly for historicity (even though it's alt-historicity on bath salts in some areas) Having the West Coast be syndie makes little more sense than the South being syndie IE not at all.
 

hoi2geek

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I heard about the reworked Italy somewhere and I was asking will that be in the DH version as well.
 

LordTempest

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Although having Syndies in the industrial, France-bordering, historically left-leaning part of Italy makes a lot of practical sense, I can't say that adding a rehash of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, an independent Sardinia and a Venetian Republic for no real reason adds much of anything useful to the mod. It really seems to be adding new things for the sake of adding new things rather than improving upon and refining what you already have.
 

mccarty.geoff

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If it doesn't have even an inkling of a basis in plausible alt-historicity, it's of no use to the mod which is designed mostly for historicity (even though it's alt-historicity on bath salts in some areas) Having the West Coast be syndie makes little more sense than the South being syndie IE not at all.
Than what do you think the results of an Entente loss of WW1 would be on the USA? I don't see how it is implausible that southern Democrats or any other disenfranchised region would be driven to rebellion. If the resulting 1920 onward Republican dominated Washington rescinded Wilson's socialistic Federal Reserve and other anti-laissez faire capitalist programs than the political disharmony between the three parties could boil over. As a fictional alternate history it could swing anyway the author wanted. I'd be more inclined to demonstrate an orderly process where the computer opponenet's alliance groups will likely attrition themselves into armistice. If the Syndicalist CSA was already consolidated in the southern USA at game start than that would arrive at the same parity I'm talking about. If the USA is going to openly rebel during game than I think the CSA or whatever should spawn out west while the South rebels nationalistically. That way there would be a balance of power on the mainland North America. Not to mention the reults of the European war and what could/should be an awesome opposite example of Europe invading North America.
 

Undead-Hippie

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Alrighty: in KR, USA is in deep economic recession. Makes sense, no post war boom and I think the stock markets still crash in '29 though it has little effect on the rest of the world since Murika's still isolationist. Now I'm no expert on history, but I think that when times are tough, people will experiment a bit with their beliefs. Like the revolutionary and reactionary movements that pop up in times of economic peril in real history. So you'll see workers rights movements in industrial areas that have been affected hard by the depression, which in the 20's and 30's was centralized in that lovely region called the Rust Belt which is where the CSA spawns when the war breaks out. There's a reason why they don't spawn in the West Coast, they're spawning where the industry is. Add in successful syndie revolutions across the pond and you can see some people say "yeah, eliminating the fat cats and seizing the means of production might be a pretty swell idea" Meanwhile in the South, Long's populist message would be more attractive to the whole region, not just his home state of Louisiana. I doubt he'd flirt with the right as he does in KR and he'd definitely be against the racists who hold power in some areas whether it be for moral or pragmatic reasons. So the actual factions in the ACW 2 are quite believable, though I don't think it would come to war.
 

vyshan

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I heard about the reworked Italy somewhere and I was asking will that be in the DH version as well.

That is the goal. I am currently focused on HOI4, I am one of the Devs on the new Italy though I also handle all the US countries, Canada and the UoB. And I want it so that when I get the US rework done as well that shall be back-ported to DH but it is slow going since well HoI4 takes up most of my time.

Alrighty: in KR, USA is in deep economic recession. Makes sense, no post war boom and I think the stock markets still crash in '29 though it has little effect on the rest of the world since Murika's still isolationist.

Actually the Crash happens in 1925 following the British Revolution. America is more isolationist but it also due to the protectionism that Germany has that screws them over.

Now I'm no expert on history, but I think that when times are tough, people will experiment a bit with their beliefs. Like the revolutionary and reactionary movements that pop up in times of economic peril in real history. So you'll see workers rights movements in industrial areas that have been affected hard by the depression, which in the 20's and 30's was centralized in that lovely region called the Rust Belt which is where the CSA spawns when the war breaks out. There's a reason why they don't spawn in the West Coast, they're spawning where the industry is. Add in successful syndie revolutions across the pond and you can see some people say "yeah, eliminating the fat cats and seizing the means of production might be a pretty swell idea" Meanwhile in the South, Long's populist message would be more attractive to the whole region, not just his home state of Louisiana. I doubt he'd flirt with the right as he does in KR and he'd definitely be against the racists who hold power in some areas whether it be for moral or pragmatic reasons. So the actual factions in the ACW 2 are quite believable, though I don't think it would come to war.

the 2nd ACW is a bit unrealistic, I will not deny, but it is going to be there. I am working on a lot of new fun stuff for the US countries including plenty of flavor events post civil war as well as tweaking the lore. As mentioned there is the plan to port this back to DH but it is really slow going due to the effort being focused on HOI4
 

Undead-Hippie

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It's unrealistic but only in scale. Rioting and small skirmishes between the feds/minute men/syndies is likely. Mass secession of states and organized armies fighting each other not so much. I tend to just roll with Curtis and avoid civil war altogether when I play USA. I'm not opposed to the war being in the mod mind you. Anyway DHKR updates like once a year around christmas anyways so I'm used to glacial updates.
 

Skywalker_T-65

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There's really no reason, gameplay or althistory, to change the ACW. On the gameplay front...right now, I see a generally balanced ACW. I've seen the AUS win, I've seen the CSA win, I've seen the Feds win. All in this version of the mod. There is no inherent balance issues right now, other than the off-chance Mexico intervenes. Sure, the CSA has an in-built IC advantage...but they darn well should. Syndies, or any socialists really, should have a strong base in the industrial areas. In the USA of this period that means the Rust Belt. California doesn't have the inbuilt, and long lasting, unions and industries that they do.

Moreover, a Syndie rising in the West would be pretty neutered. They lack that industrial base and Mexico is not enough to balance that one out. Moreover, if you take the CSA away you're unduly buffing the hell out of the Feds. Who else would rebel in the North? The Southern states are in the same situation they were in the Civil War...lower population and less heavy industry. Only now we have an ahistoricaly red West Coast for...reasons.

Say what you will about the plausibility, or lack thereof, in the ACW...but it works and has worked for as long as the mod has been a thing. I wouldn't complain about more moderate reworks like removing Kuhn or balance tweaks or giving the various factions more flavor (right now it's pretty barren past the ACW) but there's no need to upset the general cart.