Just something to consider about making lostech more available..

[wolfhoundtoo]

Except we really don't have the means to make Lostech weapons or to give information on how to make such weapons to the Successor States. That is ultimately what would prompt them to attack us not simply the possession of Lostech. Given that they control communications they'd know if we had obtained such information and were trying to sell it. It would be at that point that they would move to eliminate us but why attack? They'd hire us for a mission from which we'd never return. Shame they were off a tad about the enemy having 2 regiments instead of a lance.

 

[AncientRaig]

Except we really don't have the means to make Lostech weapons or to give information on how to make such weapons to the Successor States. That is ultimately what would prompt them to attack us not simply the possession of Lostech. Given that they control communications they'd know if we had obtained such information and were trying to sell it. It would be at that point that they would move to eliminate us but why attack? They'd hire us for a mission from which we'd never return. Shame they were off a tad about the enemy having 2 regiments instead of a lance.

The Argo, once fully upgraded, has a fully functional mech factory on board, capable of manufacturing everything from Gauss slugs to pulse lasers to entire battlemechs.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

Well I haven't been given the option to make my own mechs.

But we wouldn't need to worry about Comstar because everyone ELSE with more than a couple of aerospace fighters would come kill us first.

 

[AncientRaig]

Well I haven't been given the option to make my own mechs.

But we wouldn't need to worry about Comstar because everyone ELSE with more than a couple of aerospace fighters would come kill us first.

It doesn't give you the option as a mechanic, but the "fluff" of the upgrade says that's basically what it does.

 

[wolfhoundtoo]

Which upgrade is that?

 

[AncientRaig]

Which upgrade is that?

Improved Automation
"There's machines hidden in the walls, under the floor panels-I don't even know what half of it does. But I turned one on and it built a 'Mech leg before I was able to shut it off. We make these work, we'll be moving 'Mechs out of repair in record time."

Machine Shop
"Okay, what we've got here is a fully outfitted machine shop, and a whole lot of data on 'Mech specifications. Get this back online, and we'll be machining our own parts, probably better than the ones coming out of the Taurian factories. Faster, too."

We have access to tech that can build an entire mech leg from whatever scrap was sitting in the mechbay when Yang turned it on in a matter of minutes and a machine shop capable of producing better quality equipment than the Taurians, who have the strongest manufacturing base in the Inner Sphere right now.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

The Argo, once fully upgraded, has a fully functional mech factory on board, capable of manufacturing everything from Gauss slugs to pulse lasers to entire battlemechs.

Improved Automation
"There's machines hidden in the walls, under the floor panels-I don't even know what half of it does. But I turned one on and it built a 'Mech leg before I was able to shut it off. We make these work, we'll be moving 'Mechs out of repair in record time."

Machine Shop
"Okay, what we've got here is a fully outfitted machine shop, and a whole lot of data on 'Mech specifications. Get this back online, and we'll be machining our own parts, probably better than the ones coming out of the Taurian factories. Faster, too."

We have access to tech that can build an entire mech leg from whatever scrap was sitting in the mechbay when Yang turned it on in a matter of minutes and a machine shop capable of producing better quality equipment than the Taurians, who have the strongest manufacturing base in the Inner Sphere right now.

Improved Automation
“Repairs to the Mech Bay have unearthed a much more extensive system of ‘Mech maintenance automation than Yang previously suspected. Once back online, many common tasks will become trivial.”

Machine Shop
“Machining ‘Mechs in the Succession War era is complicated by the relative rarity of precision-manufactured parts. The Argo’s machine shop, once repaired and brought online, can help address this lack.”


“Common tasks” becoming trivial and one-off “precision-manufacturing” of parts do not a “Mech Factory” make.

Also the ARGO has never once manufactured a BattleMech or a Pulse Laser.

Repairing Legs, Arms, Side Torsos and Heads from the remains of a battle? Yes. But not from scratch. Not once.

Also, I’m a big fan of the Taurians, but in 3025 they do not have the strongest manufacturing base in the Inner Sphere. The strongest manufacturing base in the Rimward Periphery? That is worth the discussion. But in 3025 the Great Houses, especially House Steiner’s Hesperus II “massive ‘Mech factories” are clearly the basis for a stronger manufacturing base than my favored Taurians.




The ARGO is ours, and probably for a variety of reasons COMSTAR has not overtly been featured in any BATTLETECH Contract or FLASHPOINT to this point. It’s like Dr. Murad tells us, “She’s a peacetime ship meant for peacetime exploration duties, and planned with a focus on long-term orbital deployment, It was her non-Combat design that ultimately led to her abandonment.” A Tripitz she is not. A ‘Mech Factory she is not. A home to a Mercenary Outfit that deploys one Lance at a time, she is. :bow:

 

[Timaeus]

Yang is the ComStar agent. It makes sense as to why ComStar isn't after us.

 

[Gauntlet]

I'd be more concerned with making LosTech more viable instead. Then I wouldn't mind it be so hard to come by.

As i've stated before, the introduction of +/++ weapons have rendered the LosTech items a bit . . . meh . . when I feel they shouldn't be. They, in my opinion, should be better than the best +++ weapon but due to the power creep of said items, doing so would make LosTech weapons just laughably powerful.

 

[stjobe]

Yang is the ComStar agent. It makes sense as to why ComStar isn't after us.

Yang is the Watch agent; Murad is the ComStar agent.

 

[Corraidhin]

Yang is the Watch agent; Murad is the ComStar agent.

Either way, having them on board would be a great way to have us seconded (pressganged?) into fighting the Clans at Tukayyid.

"You'd rather not fight the Clan lunatics? Well, you know how you'd like to keep that shiny ship you call home?..."

 

[AncientRaig]

Improved Automation
“Repairs to the Mech Bay have unearthed a much more extensive system of ‘Mech maintenance automation than Yang previously suspected. Once back online, many common tasks will become trivial.”

Machine Shop
“Machining ‘Mechs in the Succession War era is complicated by the relative rarity of precision-manufactured parts. The Argo’s machine shop, once repaired and brought online, can help address this lack.”


“Common tasks” becoming trivial and one-off “precision-manufacturing” of parts do not a “Mech Factory” make.

Also the ARGO has never once manufactured a BattleMech or a Pulse Laser.

Repairing Legs, Arms, Side Torsos and Heads from the remains of a battle? Yes. But not from scratch. Not once.

Yang quite literally says that the automation built him an entire leg out of whatever bits and bobs were lying around in the mechbay. While I agree that it doesn't have that in game effect, the in lore statement sure does sound an awful lot like those automated mech foundries the Star League was so fond of. And it makes sense that the Argo has the facilities to build entire components out of whatever appropriate material it has available, given that the Argo is a deep space exploration vessel and will likely at some point need to repair or replace its exploration mechs.

Also, I’m a big fan of the Taurians, but in 3025 they do not have the strongest manufacturing base in the Inner Sphere. The strongest manufacturing base in the Rimward Periphery? That is worth the discussion. But in 3025 the Great Houses, especially House Steiner’s Hesperus II “massive ‘Mech factories” are clearly the basis for a stronger manufacturing base than my favored Taurians.

Hesperus II is an exception to the rule for 3025, and the Defiance Industries plant there is attacked on a regular basis by other House units. The Taurians on the other hand have always had an extremely strong industrial base, and are in fact one of the few powers that are even capable of producing large numbers of new battlemechs during this era. Their individual factories lack the raw production output of the more advanced automated foundries that some Great Houses are lucky to have, but they make up for that with sheer numbers and the fact that they passed through the Succession Wars mostly unharmed.

The ARGO is ours, and probably for a variety of reasons COMSTAR has not overtly been featured in any BATTLETECH Contract or FLASHPOINT to this point. It’s like Dr. Murad tells us, “She’s a peacetime ship meant for peacetime exploration duties, and planned with a focus on long-term orbital deployment, It was her non-Combat design that ultimately led to her abandonment.” A Tripitz she is not. A ‘Mech Factory she is not. A home to a Mercenary Outfit that deploys one Lance at a time, she is. :bow:

And yet her databanks are full of SLDF military secrets, and she's equipped with a full set of military grade mech maintenance facilities. That doesn't sound much like a "peacetime ship" to me. To use an analogy, it would be like one of the research vessels operated by the NOAA having the design specifications of and maintenance facilities for a US Army M1A2 Abrams tank. Regardless, even if she is a civilian ship, that's never stopped ComStar before, so why should it stop ComStar now? ComStar (Well, "pirates", but we all know what "pirates" actually means when it comes to stealing lostech) devastated the population of an entire planet just to try to keep some equipment and research data the Star League had on genetic modification out of the hands of the Canopians.

I can fully understand the gameplay reasons behind why we haven't fought ComStar, but trying to argue it's reasonable within the lore as well is a stretch.

 

[Unruly Marmite]

Yang quite literally says that the automation built him an entire leg out of whatever bits and bobs were lying around in the mechbay. While I agree that it doesn't have that in game effect, the in lore statement sure does sound an awful lot like those automated mech foundries the Star League was so fond of. And it makes sense that the Argo has the facilities to build entire components out of whatever appropriate material it has available, given that the Argo is a deep space exploration vessel and will likely at some point need to repair or replace its exploration mechs.


Hesperus II is an exception to the rule for 3025, and the Defiance Industries plant there is attacked on a regular basis by other House units. The Taurians on the other hand have always had an extremely strong industrial base, and are in fact one of the few powers that are even capable of producing large numbers of new battlemechs during this era. Their individual factories lack the raw production output of the more advanced automated foundries that some Great Houses are lucky to have, but they make up for that with sheer numbers and the fact that they passed through the Succession Wars mostly unharmed.


And yet her databanks are full of SLDF military secrets, and she's equipped with a full set of military grade mech maintenance facilities. That doesn't sound much like a "peacetime ship" to me. To use an analogy, it would be like one of the research vessels operated by the NOAA having the design specifications of and maintenance facilities for a US Army M1A2 Abrams tank. Regardless, even if she is a civilian ship, that's never stopped ComStar before, so why should it stop ComStar now? ComStar (Well, "pirates", but we all know what "pirates" actually means when it comes to stealing lostech) devastated the population of an entire planet just to try to keep some equipment and research data the Star League had on genetic modification out of the hands of the Canopians.

While I do agree on the factory aspect of it, as I understood it pretty much all the Star League data was lost during the Locura incident. So essentially we did ComStar's job for them: we revealed we had all that data and then immediately removed our ability to use it. And I'd say ComStar is a lot less concerned with factories than data, given that those factories still can't build Star League technology without the needed blueprints.

 

[AncientRaig]

While I do agree on the factory aspect of it, as I understood it pretty much all the Star League data was lost during the Locura incident. So essentially we did ComStar's job for them: we revealed we had all that data and then immediately removed our ability to use it. And I'd say ComStar is a lot less concerned with factories than data, given that those factories still can't build Star League technology without the needed blueprints.

I understood it as more of a "there's still valuable data on there, but we don't want to risk the horrifically lore breaking MacGuffin we created to write us out of a corner... I mean the Locura getting out and infecting the ship again".

I don't quite think people on this forum quite understand the lengths ComStar is willing to go to, and just how bad pre-Schism ComStar is. ComStar is still very concerned with people other than them having factories. They're a techno-religious order who think its their ultimate destiny to manipulate mankind into a complete technological dark age, then use their own horded technology to rebirth the Star League with them at the head. This means they want, and actively attempt to create situations to allow, war on a mass scale between the powers which will reach a point so destructive that they will render themselves utterly incapable of modern warfare as the Inner Sphere understands it. They are almost solely responsible for the Second Succession War, which caused so much destruction that it left vast swathes of interstellar civilization on the same technological level at Earth during the 1990s, and left most of the Inner Sphere incapable of understanding how most of their technology even worked anymore. Between Operation Divine Intervention and Operation Holy Shroud, ComStar caused more damage to the Inner Sphere's political, social, and technological advancement than anyone short of Amaris himself. They killed hundreds of people simply for the crime of being smart enough to understand how a laser worked, and assassinated the majority of the best scientists alive in the Inner Sphere. If you are a threat to their plans of ascendancy, they will remove you with extreme prejudice. We are not "too small" for them to care about us, we're just the right size for them to make disappear. After all, dozens of small mercenary units fail every year. Right?

 

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yang is the ComStar agent. It makes sense as to why ComStar isn't after us.

Makes sense, especially if he is a hollowvid star. I'm still convinced Yang is a distant relative of Penn Jillette.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

Yang quite literally says that the automation built him an entire leg out of whatever bits and bobs were lying around in the mechbay..

...We have access to tech that can build an entire mech leg from whatever scrap was sitting in the mechbay when Yang turned it on in a matter of minutes...

It doesn’t say “bits and bobs,” nor does it say “whatever scrap.” It is left us to to fill in those blanks. And I believe you are reading entirely too much it it. I see it as rebuilding a Damged Leg up from zero Internal Structure.

While I do agree on the factory aspect of it, as I understood it pretty much all the Star League data was lost during the Locura incident...

I agree that all the SLDF information on the partitioned drive is lost to the crew of the ARGO.

But the ARGO has no “factory.” It has never once manufactured a BattleMech. Never once. Even when it is fully renovated, the ARGO never manufactures a BattleMech. Individual Parts can be machined, one at a time, but crafting an entire BattleMech is far beyond the capabilities of the ARGO.

...The Taurians on the other hand have always had an extremely strong industrial base, and are in fact one of the few powers that are even capable of producing large numbers of new battlemechs during this era. Their individual factories lack the raw production output of the more advanced automated foundries that some Great Houses are lucky to have, but they make up for that with sheer numbers and the fact that they passed through the Succession Wars mostly unharmed...

“Sheer numbers,” “Mostly unharmed” by the Succession War? This is not the case.

The key here is the Taurians had a strong Industrial base and a strong BattleMech Force relative to the Periphery.

Not relative to the Inner Sphere.

Let’s take a look at BattleMech Forces as the First Succession War was kicking off:


Now let’s see what the Taurians fielded as the First Succession War was kicking off:

(Notice the attrition sustained by Taurian Regiments.)


Relative to the Taurian Concordant’s 9 BattleMech Regiments, House Davion fielded 143 BattleMech Regiments at the start of the First Succession War.

Relative to the Taurian Concordat’s 8 BattleMech Regiments, House Davion fielded 118 BattleMech Regiments at the start of the Second Succession War.


The Taurian Concordat had no “sheer number” advantage in BattleMechs over the Houses of the Inner Sphere.

 

[AncientRaig]

It doesn’t say “bits and bobs,” nor does it say “whatever scrap.” It is left us to to fill in those blanks. And I believe you are reading entirely too much it it. I see it as rebuilding a Damged Leg up from zero Internal Structure.

But the ARGO has no “factory.” It has never once manufactured a BattleMech. Never once. Even when it is fully renovated, the ARGO never manufactures a BattleMech. Individual Parts can be machined, one at a time, but crafting an entire BattleMech is far beyond the capabilities of the ARGO.

I'm only reading what's been written. It doesn't mention that the leg is damaged, it says that it "built a leg". That sounds like building something, not repairing something. Generally, if you want to imply you're repairing a damaged thing, you use the word "repair" to describe the action. Not the word "build".

And once again. I never stated that it does this in game. Just that the fluff implies it is capable of doing so. You can continue to bring this up all you like though.

“Sheer numbers,” “Mostly unharmed” by the Succession War? This is not the case.

The key here is the Taurians had a strong Industrial base and a strong BattleMech Force relative to the Periphery.

Not relative to the Inner Sphere.

Let’s take a look at BattleMech Forces as the First Succession War was kicking off:
View attachment 523994

Now let’s see what the Taurians fielded as the First Succession War was kicking off:
View attachment 523995
(Notice the attrition sustained by Taurian Regiments.)


Relative to the Taurian Concordant’s 9 BattleMech Regiments, House Davion fielded 143 BattleMech Regiments at the start of the First Succession War.

Relative to the Taurian Concordat’s 8 BattleMech Regiments, House Davion fielded 118 BattleMech Regiments at the start of the Second Succession War.
View attachment 523997 View attachment 524001 View attachment 524003

The Taurian Concordat had no “sheer number” advantage in BattleMechs over the Houses of the Inner Sphere.

I never said they had a "sheer number advantage in battlemechs". I said they had a more powerful manufacturing base. These are not the same thing. Ignoring that the SLDF's invasion of the Periphery had only fairly recently ended by the time of the 1st Succession War, and Taurians (and any other Periphery state) were still rebuilding, the Taurians, even at strength, obviously wouldn't be able to match the Davions in terms of sheer numbers simply due to the population difference between the two states. Additionally, the Houses had yet to truly deplete themselves until after the 2nd Succession War, which is the war that truly saw the destruction of the Great Houses industrial capacity. However, after the sheer widespread destruction of the 2nd Succession War, and the general shenanigans of ComStar throughout the entirety of the Succession Wars, the Great Houses are struggling to keep their manufacturing base intact, mostly getting by through salvage and the heroic efforts of their technicians to keep mechs in working order, while the Taurians are turning out fresh machines.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I never said they had a "sheer number advantage in battlemechs"...

...The Taurians on the other hand have always had an extremely strong industrial base, and are in fact one of the few powers that are even capable of producing large numbers of new battlemechs during this era. Their individual factories lack the raw production output of the more advanced automated foundries that some Great Houses are lucky to have, but they make up for that with sheer numbers and the fact that they passed through the Succession Wars mostly unharmed...

It appears we agree to disagree on this account.

...However, after the sheer widespread destruction of the 2nd Succession War, and the general shenanigans of ComStar throughout the entirety of the Succession Wars, the Great Houses are struggling to keep their manufacturing base intact, mostly getting by through salvage and the heroic efforts of their technicians to keep mechs in working order, while the Taurians are turning out fresh machines.

The Taurians are struggling every bit as much as the Inner Sphere to maintain their BattleMechs. Yes, the Taurian Concordat was a power within the Rimward Periphery. But relative to the Great Houses, it pales in comparison. The Concordat had no great advantage in BattleMech production as all the Great Houses were producing BatttleMechs too.

But let’s take a look at the Fourth Succession War. While the Taurian Concordat was struggling to maintain their 8 BattleMech Regiments, House Davion threw more than 70 BattleMech Regiments into Operation Rat alone. The only “sheer numbers” here, belonged to the Great House of the Inner Sphere.

 

[AncientRaig]

The Taurians are struggling every bit as much as the Inner Sphere to maintain their BattleMechs. Yes, the Taurian Concordat was a power within the Rimward Periphery. But relative to the Great Houses, it pales in comparison. The Concordat had no great advantage in BattleMech production as all the Great Houses were producing BatttleMechs too.

But let’s take a look at the Fourth Succession War. While the Taurian Concordat was struggling to maintain their 8 BattleMech Regiments, House Davion threw more than 70 BattleMech Regiments into Operation Rat alone. The only “sheer numbers” here, belonged to the Great House of the Inner Sphere.

I believe I see the misunderstanding. I was talking solely about manufacturing capabilities, and said "sheer numbers" in the context of the Taurians having a larger number of less advanced factories than the Great Houses.

Also, once again. All the manufacturing capacity in the world won't help you crew your battlemechs. The Federated Suns is nearly 5 times the size of the Taurian Concordat. They have the population to crew a much larger number of machines, and their industry is bolstered by salvage from the constant wars they fight.

 

[Prussian Havoc]

I believe I see the misunderstanding. I was talking solely about manufacturing capabilities, and said "sheer numbers" in the context of the Taurians having a larger number of less advanced factories than the Great Houses.

Also, once again. All the manufacturing capacity in the world won't help you crew your battlemechs. The Federated Suns is nearly 5 times the size of the Taurian Concordat. They have the population to crew a much larger number of machines, and their industry is bolstered by salvage from the constant wars they fight.

Do you have any source to support the Taurians having a larger number of less advanced factories than the Great Houses?