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svennnnnnnnnnnn

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Perhaps mercs should be nerfed so they don't benefit from most military ideas. 1444-1550ish mercs are probably too expensive. 1550-1650 Midgame mercs will dominate the battlefields (they kinda did historically). After that mercs will be worse than actual national armies as more and more idea groups are finished, to simulate the gradual improvement of non-merc troops historically.
 
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The main problem with mercs is that they get infinite reinforcements. Having even a small amount of them to take part of decisive battles can save a considerable amount of manpower and that's probably fine but bigger countries can employ mercs to such an extent that manpower losses can be reduced below recovery rate. For those countries money also quickly becomes excess after having all +3 advisers so you can keep merc regiments in your standing army. As far as I know there is no limit in how many total merc regiments you can have?

There needs to be some kind of manpower pool implemented for mercs to limit them somehow. I also agree with previous suggestions about merc price scaling relative to countries economy (even with reduced cost smaller countries would hardly be able to recruit all available mercs for even a short duration without serious repercussions).
 
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The only problem with merks in game, actually is in no way related to merks. It is in the fact that states can cut all expenses virtually to zero, and still have a stable, prosperous country. Loans tended to be murderous to states, but in EU4 it is hard to dig into debt enough to actually fall on death spiral.

Playing as Sweden, I did managed to get into War->Hire Merks->Get loans->more war declarations due to low manpower->more loans->economic ruin, as I couldn`t disband merks due to angry neighbours, and couldn`t pay out loans, since interest payments already approached 80% of my income. Which is realistic, except for the fact that player can easily cut all expenses that state has, bar military maintenance and loan payment.

The situation obviously helps big states immensely, as they can leverage their financial power much easier than small ones. States simply have too much money, which makes mercenaries, that use very cheap resource, money, quite powerful.
 
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bbqftw

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Well, Paradox nerfed manpower gain multiple times through the patches, and made administrative a near mandatory idea group through balancing, of course you're going to see increased mercenary reliance given these changes.

There are games this patch where I will have 500 force limit and <130k manpower pool, and this is with decently high nobility estate assignment - its a big difference from pre-Common Sense where one could actually get decent manpower pools
 
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Well, Paradox nerfed manpower gain multiple times through the patches, and made administrative a near mandatory idea group through balancing, of course you're going to see increased mercenary reliance given these changes.

There are games this patch where I will have 500 force limit and <130k manpower pool, and this is with decently high nobility estate assignment - its a big difference from pre-Common Sense where one could actually get decent manpower pools

Oh the days of getting 10k manpower a month by 1550 as a nation with manpower modifiers in their NI. Made nations like the Ottomans even easier due to not having to care about attrition or battle losses.
 
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Nerfing manpower was a step in the right direction. The problem is that they didn't really nerf mercs alongside with it so the balance shifted more in their favor. Contributing to the problem is the fact that money is still too plentiful for bigger nations. Scaling merc cost could possibly relieve the situation.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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The way mercs work in-game IMO is meant to help the (brain-dead) AI and pretty much nothing else. Previously any decent WC player knew how important it was to keep the mercs alive because it would take “forever" to recruit them again due to the sometimes very limited availability. In contrast the AI pretty much only used them when it was out of manpower; it recruited all the available mercenaries and as usual it would proceed to stack wipe them in the silliest way possible so it would be a sitting duck rather fast because it had no manpower and no more mercs to recruit. As usual instead of teaching the AI to play PDS went with a much easier workaround: change how mercenaries work in order for the AI to have an unlimited source of regiments/manpower no matter how dumbly it used them.

+1 to this. Though the extent this helped the AI ultimately is debatable, as it will continue to spam mercenaries into major loan territory. Playing a speed 3 MP game as Mongolia with a friend as Ottomans, I got to enjoy stuff like "Ming is 6000+ in debt" showing up as their negative reasons...due to their alliance with Muscovy. In the very early 1500's they were like that already due to our first war, and each subsequent war drilled their debt further. I haven't bankrupted them yet, and the wars would probably be harder if I did since I'd get to fight AIs that aren't in loan spirals.

Loan spirals seem to affect AI tech rate. Untouched Ming keeps up with western, but any time I've done that to them they fall several behind. It's the same deal for Muscovy, Ottomans, PLC, etc. If they get into bad wars a few times they loan spiral then don't keep up in tech, which makes it happen over and over again.

Nerfing manpower was a step in the right direction. The problem is that they didn't really nerf mercs alongside with it so the balance shifted more in their favor. Contributing to the problem is the fact that money is still too plentiful for bigger nations. Scaling merc cost could possibly relieve the situation.

They didn't just "not nerf" mercenaries, they massively buffed them recently by allowing an infinitely + instantly replenishing pool. Prior to that, getting more available was a serious consideration and if you were out of manpower could easily be stuck with 1/10 or less force limit, waiting for mercs to come back.

The merc change + forts made big nations a lot more resistant to piling by small ones. You can't wipe their stacks, can't maneuver to kill mercs as trained, and can't deplete their pools to hold them down. On the flip side, once you're past the early stages of the game you will *never* fall below your merc cap in regiments if your income is decent.

They buffed mercenaries, and in doing so made resource management and troop control less important.
 
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Though the extent this helped the AI ultimately is debatable, as it will continue to spam mercenaries into major loan territory.
I think that is simply another example of the good old PDS "fix" that ends up breaking the game in other ways. It is like pushing a blanket further up cause your neck is cold only to uncover your feet. I´ve seen this so many times that it is not even funny anymore.
 
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mercs are so ridiculous why even bother with standing armies. People who conquer the world in the later 1500s and early 1600s are crapping out mercs while demanding gold in peace deals. The AI is just as bad if not worse, vomiting mercs to punch wayyyy above their weight.

what's the point of manpower again? mercs or bust baby.

u realise there are people who not abuse the game right ?
... wow i only logged in for downvote you
 
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People who conquer the world in the later 1500s and early 1600s are crapping out mercs while demanding gold in peace deals.

How about no?

If you do a world conquest and find yourself spending your warscore in something else than taking lands, releasing countries, and breaking alliances, you do something wrong.

Same goes if you need mercenaries to wage wars.

Why would one spend a shitload of money while he can get more soldiers from a regular army?
 
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Jomini

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u realise there are people who not abuse the game right ?
... wow i only logged in for downvote you
Who cares about players? My problem is that AIs do it worse. It is not worth fighting these days until you can carpet the enemy. I recall an early Cossacks run as QQ, I conquested my way through North Africa and on to Grenada. Once in Grenada I fought Castille. I killed three times their total manpower, but because Forts are magical they kept replacing losses. Though I had an all cav army at low tech behind a river on plains with a net shock bonus of 2 and often fought with a wider front ... I eventually got worn away with all the silly merc spam.

And it gets worse with AI-AI wars. The AI is so terrible at covering places to spawn mercs that you may as well forget having an AI-AI war end until the big blob has sieged as many forts as they need to overcome modifiers. This may trash both participants with a loan spiral, but the AI does this regularly.



The ultimate problem is again that the AIs are not able to know when to cut their losses. Every war should not need one belligerent to siege down the capital to win. Making AIs stubborn means that they have to fight a war to the death every time. This makes manpower management huge and the AI is terrible at that. So we buff the AI with infinite mercs ... which is useless for small states with few or minimal forts and crazy good for blobs.
 
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u realise there are people who not abuse the game right ?
... wow i only logged in for downvote you
If you pushed "Accept Cultural Shift" in single player, you can be argued to be abusing the game. If you make plans on a timescale longer than "who do I want to stab in the face for clay next?", you can be argued to be abusing the game.

I don't agree with the people who would argue that, but their position is not completely unreasonable.
 

Dobrzejszy

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Perhaps mercs should be nerfed so they don't benefit from most military ideas. 1444-1550ish mercs are probably too expensive. 1550-1650 Midgame mercs will dominate the battlefields (they kinda did historically). After that mercs will be worse than actual national armies as more and more idea groups are finished, to simulate the gradual improvement of non-merc troops historically.
That, and maybe increase negative effects of loans? I see almost every state getting loans on almost every single war, sometimes multiple loans and nothing really is happening to them. Few years and they're back on their feet. Also I feel inflation is completely unimportant in EU4. Number of avaible mercs should also be decreased.
 

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Surely it would be better to nerf mercs rather than to remove manpower, no?

The way they are now is not only unrealistic but can also be kind of gamebreaking. There should probably be a much smaller quantity of mercs, they shouldn't replenish, and they should auto disband once the war is over.
 

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Larger countries should be less willing to delve into the murky depths of loans for mercenaries, otherwise I don't have a huge issue with it as I can always beat the AI.
 
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grommile

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Surely it would be better to nerf mercs rather than to remove manpower, no?
It would be better to reassess both factors, and the interaction between them, in a mature and intelligent way.
The way they are now is not only unrealistic but can also be kind of gamebreaking. There should probably be a much smaller quantity of mercs, they shouldn't replenish, and they should auto disband once the war is over.
This probably renders them irrelevant.
 

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That, and maybe increase negative effects of loans? I see almost every state getting loans on almost every single war, sometimes multiple loans and nothing really is happening to them. Few years and they're back on their feet. Also I feel inflation is completely unimportant in EU4. Number of avaible mercs should also be decreased.

These kinds of changes would run the AI into the ground. More like, it would be like taking a fighter jet and nosediving it down at a 90 degree angle into a parking lot full of landmines.

I don't like the super handholding large nations get but unless the AI magically gets much better computing power and programming to utilize it such a change would cause constant loan spirals.

Surely it would be better to nerf mercs rather than to remove manpower, no?

I don't like your suggestions regarding mercs, but I agree that nerfing them is the way to go. Resource management needs to matter.

If you do a world conquest and find yourself spending your warscore in something else than taking lands, releasing counrties, and breaking alliances, you do something wrong.

The best and record-breaking players do take money in peace deals, at least early on. Obviously once you're steamrolling you don't.

Mercenaries should be a total pool for each continent or region that refreshes over time, as manpower does.

Too far in the opposite direction, it would be trivial for one or several players to buy them all out, setting manpower = total force potential for other nations.

Though I had an all cav army at low tech behind a river on plains with a net shock bonus of 2 and often fought with a wider front ... I eventually got worn away with all the silly merc spam.

At least you weren't fighting Ming running around with a permanent 40-50 regiment merc force even at 0 manpower. Nothing like it being 1510, you go to declare on Muscovy, and you get "Ming is 6000 in debt"...but still willing to join of course.

I also love the AIs with 0 regiment refusing to peace because the war isn't long enough. They'll merc into debt too rather than getting out, if you let them. Why? Because game throwing is love and life and whatnot.
 
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sterrius

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Explaining better my idea for mercs.

First the problem.

1-> Paradox Nerfed manpower to make sure ideas like quantity had a more impact in the game, also to make sure you thinked more about how to win wars with less deaths instead of just winning by atrittion. Added to the fact atrittion itself is now capped at 5%.

2-> The problem is that mercs have a infinity reinforcement and also benefit more big countrys (that are rich) making sure that smaller or medium wars will have little to no effect to the manpower of that nation. While a smaller one, forced to rely on normal troops will be eventually overwhelmed.

Solution:
The solutions i find need to work together, it don´t have a easy fix for this.

Problem 1: Pool size.
Today formula is 20 + Force limit/3.

The timeframe of Eu4 don´t see regular armys until late game, so we can throw the history book in a shelf, BUT, manpower was a factor, in fact one of the main ones that determined a lot of wars.

So its a no brainer that most of your army, at least from the big countrys, should be of regular forces. Mercs being a way to soft up the casualities but not to totally avoid it. We want a country with 0 manpower to actually feel the weight of that lack of manpower so both player and AI consider a peace resolution when they get to 0.

Also manpower need to get back the spotlight otherwise atrittion have very little to offer to the game.

Solution1: Pool new formula would be Combat Width + Forcepool/10

Why combat Width?

First is a fair number. You will always have mercs to fill the front line of one army! So we don´t have complain that its too big (filling multiple armys) or too small (Not even having 1 army). It also increases with tech so everytime you started to think its too little you get a little more mercs to hire and help.

The second help this gives is that small/medium countrys can actually field 10-15k armys and make a dent to the manpower of a big country. Reducing the amount of wars costing 0 manpower to the winner.

That armys will always have a good number to face one front or support your normal army somewhere, but its small enough that you will not be able to face a big war with just mercs. You will have to actually think more about the wars again and how to make mercs soft up the enemy without risking your manpower.

You will be able to have 1 width army of man. 15 at 1444 , 40 at tech 26.
The forcepool / 10 looks like nothing at the start of the game, but by endgame when we have really big forcepools it will make a difference, even more if you go for ideas.

Some countrys like burgundy gets a +50%, caucasians +12,5%.

Also we make ideas that increase availability a little more Power We have 3 ideas (Plutocratic, administrative, quantity and 1 policy (Espionage - quantity) that increase available mercenaries.

So someone that really love mercs can double that amount.



Problem 2: AI merc itself to debt , and to death.

Solution: When reach 0 manpower the country will have a bonus for wanting peace. From +15 to +25, but that bonus will not work towards taking provinces, just white peace and other things like humilate, trade power etc. This is to avoid abuses of people Downing a 0 manpower country, make a quick siege, ask for 1 province and be done with it.

problem 3: Infinite reinforcements.

Solution: When we fix the quantity of mercs problem a lot of this will not be a huge problem anymore, but we can also work something here.

We can tie the reinforcement rate of mercenarys to your manpower.

At 100% Manpower you merc reinforcement speed will be 100%.
As your manpower decreases you will lose 1% reinforcement speed for each 2% to 3% of manpower losses.

So at 0% manpower the merc reinforce speed will go to 50%. (or 66% if you use the second number).

Its enough to keep a normal siege. Also the reduction in mercs wanting to be throw at the wolfs makes sense when you already lack subjects to go for it.
 
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klinkvon13

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Mercenaries are far more expensive and the pool of available mercenaries doesn't keep up as your country expands.

It also allows countries who focus on money a way of fielding an actual army. Although perhaps not having an infinite pool of mercenaries would be a good idea. When you can run +300 ducats a month and it's only 1650, you can basically bury your enemies in mercenaries and never lose a war (although it might not be worth waging the war in the first place given other options)

But there is not infinite pool of mercenary. There is a limit - I experiened this in my latest game.

Sure, money allows to get a continous stream of mercenaries - which is enough to defeat some, but cannot help against big coalition with massive stacks.

That can be considered as odd. On the other end, you cannot expect one of the five major trading country to be defeated that easily with coffers full of cash.
 
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