Just lost a battle against.... African natives.

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Maq

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Any thread focused on a western army losing to rotw armies, will go this route. This thread isn't close yet because, most likely, the mods are on a beach.
This game is based on reflection of real world and certain historical epoch. The map and countries/provinces have their real counterparts. Developers have made many events reflecting real events in history. National ideas are meant to reflect particular virtues of really existing nations and countries. Also technology cost is intended to outline progress speed of various cultures/civilizations during this period.
Talking about this game while dismissing discussions on real history, including comparisons among various nations, is unthinkable.
 
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Maq

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I hope that you can at least agree with me that British control of India would be completely unthinkable during the 16th or 17th century.
Agreed. European technology has not yet reached the level enabling them to overcome logistical obstacles. Their armies were not yet advanced enough to be able to win battles againts a foe many times larger their size, and their navies could not bring many thousands of troops there.
And here some other things unthinkable during the 16th or 17th century:
- Indians sailing to Europe,
- Indians holding trading posts in Europe,
- Indians defeating and gaining independence from Turko-Persian (Delhi sultanates followed by Afghanis and Moghuls) colonizers.

It is ridiculous that nobody complains against Turkic Muslim conquest and dominance in India, indeed, it is sometimes considered a 'Golden Age', nobody mentioned that those were times of conquest, pillage, looting, enslaving, religious oppression (not always so, I know), ... and when British did the same to India on uncomparably more civilized and humane level, it is outright condemned as the reason of all Indian misery. I can't help but to see racism in such approach: if done by non-Westerners, it's just history, if done by Westerners, it's a genocide.
 
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This game is based on reflection of real world and certain historical epoch. The map and countries/provinces have their real counterparts. Developers have made many events reflecting real events in history. National ideas are meant to reflect particular virtues of really existing nations and countries. Also technology cost is intended to outline progress speed of various cultures/civilizations during this period.
Talking about this game while dismissing discussions on real history, including comparisons among various nations, is unthinkable.
You don't compare nations. You always compare races and religions. White christians are one step short of god; the others are one step ahead of animals.
 
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Maq

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You don't compare nations. You always compare races and religions. White christians are one step short of god; the others are one step ahead of animals.
I can't get responsible for the way you misinterpret my thoughts.
Yet it was not me who accused one race/religion of genocide.
You always only negate... Why are you shy to share your own opinion?
 
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I can't get responsible for the way you misinterpret my thoughts.
Yet it was not me who accused one race/religion of genocide.
You always only negate... Why are you shy to share your own opinion?
I don't need to spam my opinion. I already stated it in another (closed) thread. At the time your answer was something like "spitting on it's antecessors' graves, is a white man hobby".
Why should i bother to engage in a debate with someone that has this level of argument?
 
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I don't need to spam my opinion. I already stated it in another (closed) thread. At the time your answer was something like "spitting on it's antecessors' graves, is a white man hobby".
Why should i bother to engage in a debate with someone that has this level of argument?
I believed that you were referring to that particular thread. Yes, it was closed because of some racist remarks of an Tamil forumite.
Well, and if you don't like my views, and don't feel the need to post counter-arguments, why do you keep on reading them and marking negatively? Why do you 'bother'?
 
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You don't compare nations. You always compare races and religions. White christians are one step short of god; the others are one step ahead of animals.

A nation (from Latin: natio, "people, tribe, kin, genus, class, flock") is a large group or collective of people with common characteristics attributed to them - including language, traditions, mores (customs), habitus (habits), and ethnicity.

>_>
 
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I believed that you were referring to that particular thread. Yes, it was closed because of some racist remarks of an Tamil forumite.
Well, and if you don't like my views, and don't feel the need to post counter-arguments, why do you keep on reading them and marking negatively? Why do you 'bother'?
Not just that forumite. Your own remarks lead to the shut down of the thread.

As for your question, i know when debate with someone is a waste of time; but that doesn't mean that i still won't read and even rate it (agree, disagree, helpful).
 
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I'm not sure whether I can understand your point.
Firstly, Dutch attempts at conquest in Kongo/Angola did not happen in 1500, but in 17th century.

Correct. OP was painting an outcome as unrealistic while completely ignoring the premise of a fully formed NED launching an intercontinental invasion hundreds of years early in a completely different world state. That is over-convenient to his position.

Their target was not the Kingdom of Kongo, but Portuguese possessions, i.e. several trading posts. And they numbered below 500 troops. They were not beaten by native armies, but by Portuguese reinforcements coming from Brazil.

Yet the game does not model this kind of detail to conflicts (or the ability to change sides in say the Italian wars. Twice.). So we get an abstraction so the game can keep going. Making a gameplay argument for that abstraction can make sense. Making a historical argument against the abstraction if and only if it's causing a player to lose...not so much :p.

Translated into terms of EUIV I suggest to make European armies much more effective in combat against African armies, but unable to field enough men to maintain control over large territory, and - above all - suffering enormous attrition.

This would not work well in practice. Heck, the developers nerfed the bejeesus out of far more basic implementations of attrition. Attrition used to be a war-changing consideration in the 1.4 - 1.7 patches. Now it's *capped* at less than 1/3 what it was possible to reach then.

They also nerfed rotation tactics in the game. They *wanted* it to be a low-strategy, beatstick army-slamming-into-each-other style gameplay to their wars. They have repeatedly and soundly nerfed any player options that involved winning wars using other tactics. The representation of armies throughout the world was changed to reflect that implementation.

And thus African natives can put 15000 men on a boats too, somehow Carib can't get into the Caribbean, and you can meet someone without meeting them.

This game is based on reflection of real world and certain historical epoch.

Last I checked, this is still the EU IV forum. I don't know what game you're talking about :p.
 
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Maq

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I have noticed my posts here initiated quite heated reaction, mostly negative, and some misunderstanding. Let me express my thoughts in a way which I believe would be clearer (and feel free to make your own opinion whether the following is based on diligent research and study, or just a fantasy and misconception):

GDP per capita is often considered the best figure (though not ideal) to indicate level of development. So, by GDP p/c, in 1444, the situation was following:
1. Italy and Flanders were on top, and quite clearly so.
2. Some parts of western Europe (Rhine valley and estuary, northern France, some parts of England, Germay, Denmark, Catalonia) followed, on par with western Anatolia (but not Greece) and some parts of China (roughly regions between Nanjing and Beijing).
Persia belonged among the latter, but Timur's campaigns caused permanent damage (irrigation systems). India, despite of old culture, lagged far behind, only narrowly above minimum level for surviving. The riches attributed to India are the result of huge population (larger than Chinese until Qing era), and intensive exploitation of majority by extremely rich and powerful minority.

As for development of GPD during second millenium, my observations are following:
Muslim countries reached their peak around the year 1000. Since then, population stagnated, GDP per capita steadily decreased, until turn of 19/20th century. This decline is often attributed to Mongol invasion, but others say it was apparent well before 1258 (conquest of Baghdad). Later on, many regions suffered from European take-over of the trade in Indian ocean (just like in Mediterranean in 11th century).
Anatolia and Syria were exceptions. Osman rule brought stabilization and moderate growth. Leading forces behind this growth were Christian minorities. (I am sorry, it really looks like prejudice, but facts are facts.)
India was poor and stagnated. Only during British rule we can observe population growth, and also modest growth of GDP p/c.
China experienced growth both in absolute and per capita numbers before Mongol conquest. Since then, China's GDP p/c - relatively impressive in the beginning - stagnated until the civil war (1911-1949) and Mao's rule, when it declined significantly to a level near starvation. However, there was a significant population growth during Qing era (1644-1912).

(Western) Europe is the only world's region where between 1000-2000 A.D. both population and GDP p/c grew steadily (except, of course, events like Black Death, Thirty-Year War, etc.). And this trajectory began in 11th century. Eastern Europe joined this growth later, from remarkably lower starting point and at lower pace in connection with overthrowing Turko-Mongolian dominance.

And here is what I actually say:
1. I do not insist that in 1444, Europe was more developed that any other part of the world. Only Italy and Flanders were, while many west-European regions were actually poorer than some regions in China, and elsewhere.
2. But I do insist that Europe grew steadily and with increasing speed during the whole second millenium, this development was generally unparalelled elsewhere, and that the word 'stagnation' is - with some minor exceptions - the most appropriate for describing what was happening in Asia.
3. The period starting in mid-18th century is historically unique in that a relatively small group of nations became powerful enough to enforce their will in any part of the world, against no-matter-how-populous nation. Uniqueness of this situation stems from HUGE difference in development between the West and the Rest.
4. The above does not mean that there was NO difference in development before mid-18th century. There clearly was, and it was gradually increasing. It was only not huge enough to enable, par example, British conquest of India.
5. And finally, when we ask WHEN this process began, when European society became different from the Rest - not yet in terms of production level, but in what we can call DYNAMISM - then my answer is: 11th century. It all began in 11th century, and reached its most spectacular results in Industrial revolution.

Hope you'll find this long reading of interest.
 
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It is also interesting to look at the effect that geomorphology had on the growth and decay of states. I'll give three examples:

1) Egypt during its heyday was basically one long and narrow river floodplain. Mesopotamia was two. Wars tended to be fought "along the grain" of the country... up and down the length of the river(s). This meant that it was relatively easy to build and consolidate an empire; which led to stagnation. Too much stability.

2) The steppes were similar, but for the opposite reason. The lack of natural defense lines and cavalry armies made it very difficult for settled (agricultural) nations to set up and maintain an empire... they were constantly exposed to attack from all sides. Too little stability, which meant that there was little profit in trying to put a civilization together; the next wave of barbarians would just tear it apart for the loot.

3) Europe was the golden mean: the network of rivers, hills and forests made for reasonably defensible borders, but did not rule out conquest by a more dynamic neighbor. Thus we had enough flux to encourage competition and innovation, but enough stability to make long-term projects worth carrying out.

... just my two cents (Canadian).
 
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5. And finally, when we ask WHEN this process began, when European society became different from the Rest - not in terms of level of development, but in what we can call DYNAMISM - then my answer is: 11th century. It all began in 11th century, and reached its most spectacular results in Industrial revolution.

This is the only point I feel interested to contend. Why 11th century, specifically? If you want to be technical you can trace chains of causality further back or start further forward.

The important question is "what led to the differences, specifically". That is still debated. I read an interesting piece on the productivity of a given factory using workers of various regions in the late 18th century, showing that it isn't necessarily technology (some equal or newer tech due to more recent construction lagged in productivity) alone. British presence in India and investment there should have made tech transfer easy in theory. Europe apparently developed some very advantageous systemic approaches that snowball in terms of becoming more effective, that other regions of the world did not adopt as readily.

From a gameplay standpoint, however, country behaviors and the way wars are fought are nonsense from "go", so it doesn't make sense to put an arbitrary restriction on non-European nations beyond the penalties they already suffer. It is already trivial for experienced players to walk over nations in Africa/Asia, and in fact to manage outcomes historical logistics of administration would have rendered impossible.

So why suddenly care about losing to Kongo, when the game lets England own all of Africa and administer it effectively? Why is one okay and not the other? THAT is the problem a lot of people have with the Eurocentric view that the game should somehow be even easier for nations like England than it already is.
 
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This is the only point I feel interested to contend. Why 11th century, specifically? If you want to be technical you can trace chains of causality further back or start further forward.

The important question is "what led to the differences, specifically". That is still debated. I read an interesting piece on the productivity of a given factory using workers of various regions in the late 18th century, showing that it isn't necessarily technology (some equal or newer tech due to more recent construction lagged in productivity) alone. British presence in India and investment there should have made tech transfer easy in theory. Europe apparently developed some very advantageous systemic approaches that snowball in terms of becoming more effective, that other regions of the world did not adopt as readily.

From a gameplay standpoint, however, country behaviors and the way wars are fought are nonsense from "go", so it doesn't make sense to put an arbitrary restriction on non-European nations beyond the penalties they already suffer. It is already trivial for experienced players to walk over nations in Africa/Asia, and in fact to manage outcomes historical logistics of administration would have rendered impossible.

So why suddenly care about losing to Kongo, when the game lets England own all of Africa and administer it effectively? Why is one okay and not the other? THAT is the problem a lot of people have with the Eurocentric view that the game should somehow be even easier for nations like England than it already is.
Valid points, and I'm especially thankful for your turn towards THE GAME. Yeah, I'm fully aware it was me who spammed this thread with lectures on history seemingly unrelated to the game, but I believe we should - don't laugh, please - we should strive to make the game as historically plausible as possible. For that, we need some basic understanding of the history in question.

[11th century: I've chosen this century because it was the time when many European societies (existing until now) were finally formed from chaos prevailing since the fall of Rome. Compare with 10th century: Europe was in defence, against Normans, Magyars, Saracens. A century later, all these threats were gone. It was also a century of significant population growth, and many cities were established.
I'm not ready to discuss various agricultural innovations which took place in those times, and I fully admit that some of them were itroduced already at the time of Charlemagne in some regions, while well after 11th century in others. It's always difficult to determine an exact date for periodization (aka when did the Middle Ages end?).
Frankly, a single most impressive argument to me is the state of struggle with the Muslims. Up to 10th century, it was them who dominated the Mediterranean region, conquered Hispania, and temporarily gained control in some parts of Italy and France. From 11th century, we can see the opposite, the 'Franks' got clearly stronger, strong enough to even consider conquest of the Holy Land. Not Muslim traders, but Italian cities (Amalfi was the first one) took control over the sea and its trade. This was much more important event than we can easily imagine, because at that time Hispania, Egypt, Syria and Iraq were the most advanced and richest countries in the world. Yet, the Franks prevailed, and launched an offensive. Something important must have happened in Europe at that time.
I believe the most important change happened in minds. The Christians did not expect the Armageddon any more after the year 1000, and learned to look forward - from dark past to brighter future. The feeling of positive change, that's it. I think it was born in 11th century.]
 
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I call it the wide-eyed effect, in which civilizations rapidly increases in sophistication after settling down and start learning from everyone around them.

In contrast China was suffering from the Nose in the Air effect.
 
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The kalrSalian

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Sure Europeans probably had the technological superiority over africans and native americans for all of the games time frame, but that does not automatically make european armies able to win over native ones just because they happen to be more advanced. Everything else about warfare still applies, tactics, Generalship, terrain and a host of other variables still very much are in play. Sure on a flat plain, if u set up 10k Europeans with equipment and then 10k natives with their equipment then yes the europeans will win, but real history is never that simple. And I agree that the things limiting europeans should be mainly logistical, which is very accurate.

Now when it comes to history in general, and European/western dominance which is a period we still somewhat live in and is very debated among scholars one should be very careful to use words like "inevitable. Also imo its pretty helpful seeing the world as a network as opposed to seperate groups sitting and staring at each other trying to "progress", wathever that means.
 
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Evan05

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Sure Europeans probably had the technological superiority over africans and native americans for all of the games time frame, but that does not automatically make european armies able to win over native ones just because they happen to be more advanced. Everything else about warfare still applies, tactics, Generalship, terrain and a host of other variables still very much are in play. Sure on a flat plain, if u set up 10k Europeans with equipment and then 10k natives with their equipment then yes the europeans will win, but real history is never that simple. And I agree that the things limiting europeans should be mainly logistical, which is very accurate.

Now when it comes to history in general, and European/western dominance which is a period we still somewhat live in and is very debated among scholars one should be very careful to use words like "inevitable. Also imo its pretty helpful seeing the world as a network as opposed to seperate groups sitting and staring at each other trying to "progress", wathever that means.

Too bad attrition is no longer crippling and the player has the ability to send over an insanely large amount of units that completely defy reality and logic.

Keep in mind that in battles Europeans vs. Natives, the Europeans were almost always outnumbered and for the most part by a crazy amount. Even then they still managed to kick ass and take names. The other problem is that Europeans (especially in Africa) were destroyed by diseases and heat and for nearly all of EU4's time period the European invaders were confined to the coast of Africa.
 
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Maq

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@The kalrSalian , @Evan05
Yes. This is the aim of all my posts in this thread, to explain that already in 1444 Europeans were more advanced socially, and also militarily, in relation to almost any other force, but not advanced enough to gain much from their superiority because this was not big enough to overcome logistical problems.
When it comes to the game, I call for making 'natives' militarily weaker than they are in the game presently, and simultaneously implementing schemes which would simulate those logistical difficulties.
The main obstacle seems to be AI's inability to handle high levels of attrition. Unfortunately, it seems to be a pretty complex problem, and although I'm positive the developers are well aware of that, they failed to improve it as yet.
At this moment, I have two suggestions which I've posted in other subforum (Suggestions):
1. To make impossible to transport large armies across the oceans, and make it easier only at higher levels of technology. Several ways come into consideration. I rather prefer making transport ships highly demanding for sailors (and adjust sailors' generation optimally).
2. To implement kill_army_percentage effect (province scope). This would enable to make large parts of armies die through events. Such events would be triggered for invading armies in regions and circumstances when high attrition (diseases, meagre supplies, desertion) can be expected. Par example, in the case of the original post of this thread, I imagine that European army could defeat African army ten times its size, but in serious danger that half of the army would get suddenly lost due to disease outbreak.
This, combined with limited ability to bring reinforcements, would simulate the actual conditions of such encounters much better. However, there's again the big question: Will the AI understand it? Or will it stupidly and stubbornly try to conquer some almost worthless African provinces at enormous costs in manpower? For that, I have no answer. It should be addressed to developers...

Edit: While thinking on these problems, I've come to another, rather far-reaching idea: The armies should not reinforce automatically on enemy soil. Especially if standing and fighting far away from home.
 
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ywxiao

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The best of Europe was probably superior, but that's not what his army was. I mean it's laughable to think he sent an army of 4,000 Reiters and 13,000 Gallowglass infantry. The King of France would have had trouble deploying that force in Europe in 1522, let alone outside of Europe.

For peasant levies, I don't think they'd be much better(if at all) in the african desert than native warriors. Horses are even more of a liability, they may be good for food for a while...

Arguebus of even the Elizabeth era generally only fired 1 shot per 5 minutes, so 1522 they are looking at even worse firing rates. Their primary advantage was in the shock value against unfamiliar opponent and against heavily armoured enemy. African natives may be susceptive to the former, but generally lack the later.

His army just crossed a river, so maybe his arquebus didn't even work. It was 17k thirsty, tired, and sickly men against 23k African natives who are determined to fight off invaders.

Note I'm still referring to the situation presented by the OP. I see nothing wrong both in reality and gameplay wise that this was unexpected result.
 
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Maq

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The best of Europe was probably superior, but that's not what his army was. I mean it's laughable to think he sent an army of 4,000 Reiters and 13,000 Gallowglass infantry. The King of France would have had trouble deploying that force in Europe in 1522, let alone outside of Europe.

For peasant levies, I don't think they'd be much better(if at all) in the african desert than native warriors. Horses are even more of a liability, they may be good for food for a while...

Arguebus of even the Elizabeth era generally only fired 1 shot per 5 minutes, so 1522 they are looking at even worse firing rates. Their primary advantage was in the shock value against unfamiliar opponent and against heavily armoured enemy. African natives may be susceptive to the former, but generally lack the later.

His army just crossed a river, so maybe his arquebus didn't even work. It was 17k thirsty, tired, and sickly men against 23k African natives who are determined to fight off invaders.

Note I'm still referring to the situation presented by the OP. I see nothing wrong both in reality and gameplay wise that this was unexpected result.

You should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cochin_(1504)
It happens to be a very detailed description of an early (1504) armed conflict between Europeans and Asians. (Just in case you're lazy enough to read the story, it's short summary is this: 150 (one hundred and fifty) Portuguese soldiers plus 5,000 Indian allies defeated Indian army of more than 50 thousand. In 1504 CE.)

All of you who insist that in 1500 there was no significant superiority on European side compared to the Rest should read the whole story of early Portuguese 'Armadas', i.e. expeditions aimed at discovery, trade, and control of trade in India(n ocean).
After a while, you'll see that the Portuguese had to face no equals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_India_Armadas
 
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