Just lost a battle against.... African natives.

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Adonnus

General
54 Badges
Apr 17, 2011
2.313
2.088
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Two actually.

First one was about 6k vs 20k.

Second one was the revenge army, completely annihilated after two battles. 17k vs 23k.

Who am I fighting you may ask? Kongo & allies. All sub Saharans. The year is 1508 and I just have unlocked the Reiter technology which allows my cavalry to fire and then wheel around in front of the enemies. This is against the African tribal armies who have probably never seen gunpowder in their life before but in game can rekk my army cause of a slight numerical advantage and RNG.

This is just plain stupid. Never ever ever happened in real life or anything close to it. Kongo's tech is 1 step away from the limber, really??? paradox I had no idea the Congolese army had almost perfected horse drawn artillery in 1508 thanks for enlightening me.
 
  • 81
  • 9
Reactions:

IndianSummer

Major
64 Badges
Nov 3, 2014
626
281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Two actually.

First one was about 6k vs 20k.

Second one was the revenge army, completely annihilated after two battles. 17k vs 23k.

Who am I fighting you may ask? Kongo & allies. All sub Saharans. The year is 1508 and I just have unlocked the Reiter technology which allows my cavalry to fire and then wheel around in front of the enemies. This is against the African tribal armies who have probably never seen gunpowder in their life before but in game can rekk my army cause of a slight numerical advantage and RNG.

This is just plain stupid. Never ever ever happened in real life or anything close to it. Kongo's tech is 1 step away from the limber, really??? paradox I had no idea the Congolese army had almost perfected horse drawn artillery in 1508 thanks for enlightening me.

Well unless you lived 500 years ago I see no reasoning why you should not be beaten in 16 century.

In otherwords there is nothing of use in this post. It misses Tech lvl's, countries a.o.moreover, terrain a.o.. Moreover natives are the ones that uprise in uncolonized provinces or provinces with a colonist.
 
  • 37
  • 3
Reactions:

Adonnus

General
54 Badges
Apr 17, 2011
2.313
2.088
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Well unless you lived 500 years ago I see no reasoning why you should not be beaten in 16 century.

In otherwords there is nothing of use in this post. It misses Tech lvl's, countries a.o.moreover, terrain a.o.. Moreover natives are the ones that uprise in uncolonized provinces or provinces with a colonist.

You are just disagreeing to disagree. Tech levels are clearly stated. I am 10 and they are 6 (one behind limber). They are Kongo. Terrain FYI was jungle with them having a -1 river penalty as if it even matters. My country doesn't matter (it's Holland) since all European nations at this stage of the game are virtually identical in combat. I've clearly stated I was fighting against a country, Kongo. There is "nothing of use" in your reply.

Well unless you lived 500 years ago I see no reasoning why you should not be beaten in 16 century.

You can read this 100 times back and forth in every language in the world and it will still make no sense at all.
 
  • 48
  • 7
  • 1
Reactions:

Zohtun

Generic Worthless Courtier
84 Badges
Sep 9, 2013
2.771
1.611
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Dungeonland
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
All I can do is advise you to hang your head in shame. You lost to savages :p

Check your army width. Only a certain number of your troops are actually "in battle" at a given time after all, the rest serving as reinforcements. As those who've taken down French Space Marines using people like Kongo have proven, the width is quite important and can make a difference as their reinforcements fill in to replenish holes in their lines with minimal morale loss, while your troops get morale tanked. How about discipline, are your troops being kept in line? Morale itself, how is yours and its recovery? There's a thousand factors in the sum used by EU4 to determine winner, so lets figure which one is the one screwing you.
 
  • 14
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

Surimi

General
89 Badges
May 24, 2014
2.204
4.190
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
This is just plain stupid. Never ever ever happened in real life or anything close to it.

Kongo-Portuguese War of 1622.

Basically, the idea that European armies of the 17th century, let alone the 16th century, were these all-conquering space marines mowing down hordes of hapless non-European foes Rorke's drift style is complete nonsense. In fact, EU4 massively exaggerates the effectiveness of European armies against non-European enemies for most of the timeline. Historically, where Europeans did win without superior numbers, it was usually because their armies were more disciplined and used things like formation better rather than the higher availability of gunpowder. Beyond the fact that large African polities like the kingdom of Kongo quickly adopted guns (which they traded for slaves), archers still had many advantages over gunpowder weapons, particularly in Africa where archers often poisoned their arrows. Gunpowder was important, but it hardly ensured victory.
 
Last edited:
  • 73
  • 10
  • 2
Reactions:

IHateThisCo

Captain
49 Badges
Dec 8, 2013
430
710
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
Losing 4 tech levels ahead is impressive. Were you attacking right off the ships? -2 disembarking, -2 jungle, outflanked by 6 units, and if their general is better that would be why.

Also check army maintenance. That one is a killer.

And plenty of countries fought off the Europeans that early. Ethiopia continued to fight off the Italians 200 years later.
 
  • 39
  • 1
Reactions:

IndianSummer

Major
64 Badges
Nov 3, 2014
626
281
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Surviving Mars
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Sorry, it was not my intention to have usefull points in my post, it was mainly to point out the lack of in the OP.

Sorry, that I do not know the names of techs.
Sorry, that I do not know the names of unit.



And yes in battle those factors give you a -2 modifier. Moreover they determine Battle width that is quite important when you are fighting against Superior numbers.

And yes your Country matters, they have several NI's and choose different ideas. In particular those that increase general shock stat early game.
 
  • 9
  • 1
Reactions:

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
54 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
30.243
18.895
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
Two actually.

First one was about 6k vs 20k.

Second one was the revenge army, completely annihilated after two battles. 17k vs 23k.

Who am I fighting you may ask? Kongo & allies. All sub Saharans. The year is 1508 and I just have unlocked the Reiter technology which allows my cavalry to fire and then wheel around in front of the enemies. This is against the African tribal armies who have probably never seen gunpowder in their life before but in game can rekk my army cause of a slight numerical advantage and RNG.

This is just plain stupid. Never ever ever happened in real life or anything close to it. Kongo's tech is 1 step away from the limber, really??? paradox I had no idea the Congolese army had almost perfected horse drawn artillery in 1508 thanks for enlightening me.

The irony of complaining that 17k European troops lost in West Africa because of "real life" in 1500 is irrational to the point of comical. That said, if you're interested in learning the game these aren't hard wars once you know what to expect. If you're up 4 techs including multiple tactics tech, winning is typically trivial unless you're making a mistake. More detail and you can get help finding what went wrong.
 
  • 23
  • 2
Reactions:

Adonnus

General
54 Badges
Apr 17, 2011
2.313
2.088
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Yeah, my maintenance is fine, they were attacking across a river, wasn't disembarking, they were 4 tech levels behind, they had no cannons and only *slightly* outnumbered me... I don't remember the exact figures for morale and width but it was IIRC the default given to you upon various levels of tech advancement. Generals were about even. Attacked from 1 direction only.

Kongo-Portuguese War of 1622.

Basically, the idea that European armies of the 17th century, let alone the 16th century, were these all-conquering space marines mowing down hordes of hapless non-European foes Rorke's drift style is complete nonsense. In fact, EU4 massively exaggerates the effectiveness of European armies against non-European enemies for most of the timeline. Historically, where Europeans did win without superior numbers, it was usually because their armies were more disciplined and used things like formation better rather than the higher availability of gunpowder. Beyond the fact that large African polities like the kingdom of Kongo quickly adopted guns (which they traded for slaves), archers still had many advantages over gunpowder weapons, particularly in Africa where archers often poisoned their arrows. Gunpowder was important, but it hardly ensured victory.

You are clearly forgetting the main advantage of gunpowder in those days, morale. Not actual physical damage. There are no strength figures and very little information on the "main" battle of that Kongo-Portugal war, and as for the Ethiopians not only did they have thousands of muskets they also vastly outnumbered their foes. The idea that my enemies would have acquired some modern weapons is also ludicrous given that only I had been there before, a few years ago, and no other European nations. So they outfitted 1/2 their army with muskets in 4 years from my 1 colony next door. Huh sure.

The irony of complaining that 17k European troops lost in West Africa because of "real life" in 1500 is irrational to the point of comical. That said, if you're interested in learning the game these aren't hard wars once you know what to expect. If you're up 4 techs including multiple tactics tech, winning is typically trivial unless you're making a mistake. More detail and you can get help finding what went wrong.

It may be in your mind. There is nothing objectively irrational about it since it follows the in game logic set by the game's start point, that being something similar to real life history from ~1440 onwards (like African technology), and then allowing for possibilities past that point (like raising armies and moving them). So, to claim that it's just as absurd for 17k men to be in West Africa fighting natives as it is 23k of those natives, with disadvantages in the terrain and technology, beating them, is... irrational to the point of comical. I have 300 hours - nothing this stupid has ever happened. Also, every necessary detail has been provided. You clearly have reading comprehension skill shortages.

This is also not forgetting that most of my army is actually infantry with swords, mail etc presumably. Reformed Gallogliach.

I would also invite you to check out the strength and casualty figures of this battle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Otumba


Also, 4 disagrees? Really? What levels of fanboyism has the EUIV forum sunk to? Everything I posted makes utter and absolute sense. I'll probably get a load of **** for saying this too but the truth is too much for some people (that there are ridiculous things like losing against a significantly technologically impaired foe, only slightly outnumbered, across a river years out from release, and the African natives almost have cannons).

It's like saying there's a comparison between in game African nations and in game European nations and also modern African nations, who have cold war technology and modern European nations. Nonsense. Those sub saharan nations had hundreds of years of technology to catch up on. If you disagree with that... there's no hope for you. It's not "Eurocentric" it's an objective fact.
 
Last edited:
  • 62
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:

bbqftw

banana vendor for unhuman entities
2 Badges
Jan 18, 2014
5.394
6.187
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
The year is 1508 and I just have unlocked the Reiter technology which allows my cavalry to fire and then wheel around in front of the enemies.

Fun fact: reiters upgrade at tech 10 actually does nothing to boost western cavalry (since you get an extra fire pip on a 0x cav fire multiplier, western cavalry does zero fire damage regardless of pip in that phase until cavalry gets fire multipliers later on).

that said considering you lost a battle with two tactics advantage I assume you were doing something silly like fighting with half regiment strength, then getting insta-wiped at zero morale. You also forget that Kongo allies might have different tech levels, finally since they have 4 countries to roll generals from odds are they will have a superior general.

Use the consolidate button liberally, it is there for a reason.

I would also invite you to check out the strength and casualty figures of this battle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Otumba

I think you took a wrong turn at Cape Verde if you think that is relevant.
 
  • 22
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Adonnus

General
54 Badges
Apr 17, 2011
2.313
2.088
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Darkest Hour
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • War of the Roses
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Fun fact: reiters upgrade at tech 10 actually does nothing to boost western cavalry (since you get an extra fire pip on a 0x cav fire multiplier, western cavalry does zero fire damage regardless of pip in that phase until cavalry gets fire multipliers later on).

True but you forgot it unlocks a new unit type with much better pips than Latin Knights. Also new cannons.

that said considering you lost a battle with two tactics advantage I assume you were doing something silly like fighting with half regiment strength, then getting insta-wiped at zero morale.

Nope.
But good job assuming it must be an error on my part, and that I couldn't possibly be right about the game misjudging the tech advancement they gave sub saharans anyway.


You also forget that Kongo allies might have different tech levels, finally since they have 4 countries to roll generals from odds are they will have a superior general.

Reloaded and checked, nope.



I think you took a wrong turn at Cape Verde if you think that is relevant.

Yes there is no way an army of spear wielding (or arquebus/pike wielding depending on which history you are learning from) have anything in common with an army of soldiers with obsidian tipped clubs and similar proto-feudal army organisation.
 
Last edited:
  • 22
  • 1
Reactions:

TheMeInTeam

Field Marshal
54 Badges
Dec 27, 2013
30.243
18.895
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Prison Architect
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
It may be in your mind. There is nothing objectively irrational about it since it follows the in game logic set by the game's start point, that being something similar to real life history from ~1440 onwards

It would appear you're playing a different game. Stating the case that it's ahistorical based on your OP is objectively irrational. The complaint ignores that the situation never happened in history in that timeframe, ignores heaps of other systems allowing you to put 17k there at all, and ignores malaria.

In a game chalk full of examples of things not meshing with history, you're mysteriously only seeing something as unrealistic when you start losing to it. Losing, despite claiming that targets with 2 tactics levels of tech (and roughly 50 years behind you in-game overall) are fighting too effectively. A more useful mentality in this situation would be to ask for help. Many players trivially win more challenging wars without such a disparate tech lead; so what causes the difference in outcome?

Flagrant eurocentrism won't get you there, but if you learn the mechanics this will seem like the easy war you think it should be. Or, if Kongo seems so strong, play a game as them and attack Europeans. See how you do in those wars.
 
  • 30
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

bbqftw

banana vendor for unhuman entities
2 Badges
Jan 18, 2014
5.394
6.187
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
True but you forgot it unlocks a new unit type with much better pips than Latin Knights. Also new cannons.
Those pips actually do not matter at tech 10. That's my point - because cavalry fire multiplier is zero at that point in time, it could have one thousand offensive fire pips advantage and it would confer no advantage in battle at tech 10.
 
  • 13
  • 1
Reactions:

Kapitalisti

Field Marshal
110 Badges
Jan 24, 2013
5.653
9.517
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Magicka 2
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
If anything beating the natives on their home turf should be a lot harder than it is now, especially that early. And your armies should promptly die of malaria if you're foolish enough to venture beyond the shores anyway.
 
  • 28
  • 1
Reactions:

Surimi

General
89 Badges
May 24, 2014
2.204
4.190
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Prison Architect
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
You are clearly forgetting the main advantage of gunpowder in those days, morale. Not actual physical damage.

Sure, but you're assuming that "advantage" should be decisive. Why? It clearly wasn't in history.

I mean, I imagine arrow poison was quite frighting to encounter as well. The thought that you might survive a battle only to literally poop yourself to death sounds pretty scary in a time when medical knowledge barely existed. Should we force the game to reflect that too?

There are no strength figures and very little information on the "main" battle of that Kongo-Portugal war.

You can't trust "strength figures" from the time anyway. They were often embellished or exaggerated, particularly when Europeans fought non-Europeans. However, the Kingdom of Kongo proved quite consistently successful in resisting the Portuguese up until its final defeat in 1665, a century and a half after your attempted invasion.

There is nothing objectively irrational about it since it follows the in game logic set by the game's start point, that being something similar to real life history from ~1440 onwards (like African technology),

The game logic is unrealistic in terms of the weight it accords to fairly minor degrees of technological superiority. The differences between a "feudal" army (like that of the Kingdom of Kongo, using the term feudal very broadly here) and a late medieval army (like Europe in 1500) was not that big at all. There is only so much which can be done with sharp bits of metal, guns which fire 4 bullets a minute an army still organised around levied peasants and mercenaries.

It's like saying there's a comparison between in game African nations and in game European nations and also modern African nations, who have cold war technology and modern European nations.

No. It isn't at all. Today, in an age of high performance aircraft, artillery which can flatten square miles of terrain in seconds and computer guided missiles, technology is considerably more important. The technological differences which we're talking about here are simply not that significant in comparison.

Those sub saharan nations had hundreds of years of technology to catch up on.

Let me explain to you why people are calling you Eurocentric, and why they're objectively (since you like that word) right.

You've assumed (as does the game, for that matter, but the game is forgivable in that it's just a system trying to abstractly represent things) that technology follows a linear progression through history which can be expressed in the form of stadial time. What is that model of history based on?

Oh right, it's based on what happened in Europe..

In truth, the amount of "technology" present in different societies at different times almost never accords to a single point in European history. Technology at this point is just the stuff that works in a given time and place. The various African military systems of the time may look inadequate if you define advancement by the availability of guns or metal armour, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is whether it worked, and historically it did.

At the start of the EU4 timeline, the most powerful and successful military system on the planet was developed by people who lived on the Eurasian steppes and whose way of life had been essentially unchanged for thousands of years.
 
Last edited:
  • 44
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

ianchen12345

Major
39 Badges
Mar 31, 2016
723
410
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
missing army comp (too many cavalry :p ??? or no cavalry) , terrain bonuses/maluses, don't know if they have generals or not (enemy and the OP).
really would appreciate if there are some screenshots for these battles that the OP lost so badly... (at least we as a community can try to figure out what went wrong)

Edit: when OP claims that terrains don't matter, this shows his poor understanding of the game mechanics. If he could at least try to go on EU4 wiki and learn about army comp/milltary tech/ pips/ different tech units/ terrain bonuses/ army morale/ discipline/ policies/ ideas, I can guarantee that he would not make the same mistakes ever again.
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:

atwix

Manager of Micro
53 Badges
Mar 2, 2014
8.560
4.241
  • BATTLETECH: Flashpoint
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • BATTLETECH
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • BATTLETECH: Season pass
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Empire of Sin
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
“When a white man kills an Indian in a fair fight it is called honorable, but when an Indian kills a white man in a fair fight it is called murder. When a white army battles Indians and wins it is called a great victory, but if they lose it is called a massacre and bigger armies are raised." Chiksika, American NATIVE chief.
 
  • 38
  • 6
  • 1
Reactions:
Status
Not open for further replies.