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moloko

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so far in my games the ai seems to use an abundance of cavalry no matter what the terrain. i've fought battles in mountains or heavy forest and the ai always seems to have between 5-7k or more. i only ask this because i purposely didn't attach much cavalry to armies that i knew would be in mountains and when the fighting started the enemy had tons of cavalry. i lost heavily in those battles, even the ones in which i was the victor, and my land tech was more than double. i don't know how good their generals were but mine where no amatuers. aren't cavalry severly penalized in those types of terrain? am i wasting my time by tailoring my armies to the terrain they will fight in? i'm also assuming that cavalry becomes less effective towards the end of the game.
 

unmerged(69495)

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I could be wrong, but I think the advantage of cavalry is in killing enemy troops, while infantry is good for breaking morale? So you can win battles but still lose a lot of troops compared to your enemy if they send a lot of cavalry against your infantry-heavy army. Again, I'm no expert, EUIII is my first Paradox game even... so I could be wrong about this.

-noct
 

moloko

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noct said:
I could be wrong, but I think the advantage of cavalry is in killing enemy troops, while infantry is good for breaking morale? So you can win battles but still lose a lot of troops compared to your enemy if they send a lot of cavalry against your infantry-heavy army. Again, I'm no expert, EUIII is my first Paradox game even... so I could be wrong about this.

-noct
that would make sense because in the battles that i won i still took significantly more losses. i still think my tech advantage (37 to 14) should have swayed things more in my favor.
 

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In the 15th century cavalry has an amazing advantage over infantry, but this edge is eroded as land tech increases. Check your ledger - one of the pages in it will list a shock and fire multiplier for your units - this number multiplies the values units get, so a 1-shock cavalry is actually 2 shock in 1453, while a 1-shock infantry is actually 0.5 shock. Infantry slowly gains both shock and fire, while cavalry essentially never gets much better than it starts with.

In addition to that, cavalry is faster and more manueverable - cavalry units can be used to outflank a smaller enemy force, so you will end up doing more damage without the cavalry getting hurt. Say you have 10 regiments and the enemy has only 6 - their six regiments will attack six of your regiments, and vice versa, but in addition, the four regiments on the ends can attack if they're manueverable enough - either a general or cavalry. They attack but can't be attacked back - so in this case (10 vs 6) the attacker will do almost twice as much damage per round!

Cavalry's big disadvantages are cost (to raise and maintain a cavalry regiment) and terrain. Cavalry suffers twice the usual terrain penalty, so they're not very effective in mountains or forests. However, only the attacker suffers terrain penalties. Since cavalry alone can outrun infantry, they are likely to reach a province first and become the defender. Besides this, even a -2 penalty may not outweigh the overall effectiveness of a cavalry regiment in battle in the early game.

Long story short: yes, you're probably not achieving much by tailoring your armies to the terrain, especially if you are the attacker/invader.
 

unmerged(47003)

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Also, cavalry is pound-for-pound better than infantry. And attrition and supply limits play a big part in any well-planned campaign.

So your 6 cavalry sitting in a 6 supply province may be just as strong and expensive as those 12 infantry units sitting in the next 6 supply province, but your cavalry aren't taking any damage from attrition while theirs are taking a ton. And 2 months attrition at 10%, which is not hard to inflict (have the enemy attack, lose, and then retreat in winter for example) well you've just killed over 2 regiments without ever lifting a finger!

I know 1.2 was supposed to change things but I still find myself using cavalry exclusively as of 1570... hopefully that changes later on.
 

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As said, CAV is seriously more powerfull than INF in the early game.
Before, it had 4 times the shock value of INF. Now it is "only" doubled, but it is still more effective for smaller nations to use CAV only armies in the beginning.
I am about 1600 in my Switzerland game, i started with a 2k CAV stack and conquered enemies with 3-4 times my army size! Now i have a Sitzern Empire under the sun... CAV has still about twice the shock value of INF, but from now on (Land tech 17), INF and ART get higher and higher fire values, so IF you fight longer than 5 shock days, your CAV will now get quite a punch!

And forget about terrain.
-1 is equal to about -10% combat efficency.
doubled for CAV its -20%, which means nothing if CAV is 100% stronger than INF...
 

unmerged(36209)

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After patch 1.2. It seems that all cavalery army break very fast, so they cant make any decent damage...
Best is to use combined forces(1/3infantry,2/3cavalery in early times, 2/3infantry,1/3cavalery later), at last its how I make my armes:)
 

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xzwart said:
After patch 1.2. It seems that all cavalery army break very fast, so they cant make any decent damage...
Best is to use combined forces(1/3infantry,2/3cavalery in early times, 2/3infantry,1/3cavalery later), at last its how I make my armes:)

You can always keep the cavalry separate and use them to chase the enemy armies to keep them in a continual rout and eventually destroy them.
 

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In the 15th century cavalry has an amazing advantage over infantry, but this edge is eroded as land tech increases. Check your ledger - one of the pages in it will list a shock and fire multiplier for your units - this number multiplies the values units get, so a 1-shock cavalry is actually 2 shock in 1453, while a 1-shock infantry is actually 0.5 shock. Infantry slowly gains both shock and fire, while cavalry essentially never gets much better than it starts with.
Not exactly.
1. I'll have to check this again but IIRC cavalry is best around tech level 10 when it gains shock multiplier of about 3-4 while infantry stays around 1. I the begining it's 1 vs. 0.5 so not that big difference (ok, still twice as much, but casualties won't be as large and thus morale counts more). On later tech levels infantry gains fire multiplier quite quickly and thus becomes more cost-effective, especially if you take huge (read: over the top, what were they thinking?) statlines of later latin infantry into account.
2. There is a difference between unit stats and the ledger multiplier. Stats (fire/shock/morale attack/defence) are to-hit modifiers and the multiplier multiplies damage done, not stats. Nothing really important but better statlines make units more reliable while high multiplier allows for some incredible results but only if you're lucky/have good leader.

Maciek
 

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xzwart said:
After patch 1.2. It seems that all cavalery army break very fast, so they cant make any decent damage...
Best is to use combined forces(1/3infantry,2/3cavalery in early times, 2/3infantry,1/3cavalery later), at last its how I make my armes:)
Well, I have to agree with you.
My post above was related to small nations.
If you have the manpower, it is probably better to have 4 Inf and 1 cav than 2 cav. Remember: CAV has 7 times higher upkeep costs than INF and cannot assault!
The problem is - if I understand the combat system correctly - that only a limited amount of your troops can fight against your enemy. If you outnumber your enemy 5:1, lets say, 10 INF vs 2 CAV, only 4 INF (or more if you got a decent maneuver GEN?) can attack the enemy. Iirc, CAV has maneuver 2, so it might be a good idea to have 2k CAV in your army for the flanks...
 

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Use an infantry core with cavalry on the wings, and you get the best of both worlds - infantry soaks the damage, and cavalry slaughters your enemy.

Note that while cavalry does far more damage at the beginning, it doesn't defend for squat. So against early infantry that has some shock dots, it can quickly get worn down, especially if you try and pit 1K cavalry against 3K infantry (your cavalry is getting hit by all 3 infantry).
 

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naggy said:
So against early infantry that has some shock dots, it can quickly get worn down, especially if you try and pit 1K cavalry against 3K infantry (your cavalry is getting hit by all 3 infantry).
To be honest, i have never really noticed this.

Okay, CAV can loose quite some morale when fighting against bigger armies, but unless he has flanking CAV and a good general, you will cause more casulties (or at least equal) on his men then he on yours...
...and if you retreat on a bad dice roll, you are almost perfectly save...
 

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naggy said:
Use an infantry core with cavalry on the wings, and you get the best of both worlds - infantry soaks the damage, and cavalry slaughters your enemy.

Note that while cavalry does far more damage at the beginning, it doesn't defend for squat. So against early infantry that has some shock dots, it can quickly get worn down, especially if you try and pit 1K cavalry against 3K infantry (your cavalry is getting hit by all 3 infantry).
What do you mean by on the wings? Does the order you put them in count?
 

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Guston said:
What do you mean by on the wings? Does the order you put them in count?
No. When you enter a battle, cavalry is automatically put in your flanks (to either side), while infantry is automatically put in the centre. You can tell this by looking at the battle - there are two to four rows showing your army and the enemy army; an x represents an infantry regiment, a / represents a cavalry regiment. The brighter the color the healthier they are.

However, note that if two armies end up in the same battle, one army will make up the center, then the next army will make up the flanks. This can result in some strange army formations - like when I sent my cavalry in first, then arrived with my slower infantry to join the battle. In this case, my cavalry made up the center (and got chewed up!) while my infantry was relatively ineffectual as my flanks.
 

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I tend to plug a few cavalry into my main armies, but mostly, I keep cavalry separate for running down broken enemies and taking out rebels when war exhaustion starts creeping up.

Keep in mind that cavalry costs about twice as much as infantry in both maintenance and recruiting (depending on your slider for the latter), so they're a bit of luxury, too.
 

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SirGrotius said:
Keep in mind that cavalry costs about twice as much as infantry in both maintenance and recruiting (depending on your slider for the latter), so they're a bit of luxury, too.
Isn't INF upkeep 0.1 (0.2?) and cav upkeep 0.7?!
 

KonradRichtmark

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No, as far as I've seen it's more like 0.2 for infantry, 0.4 for cavalry and 0.6 for artillery. These numbers are for full units of 1000 men at 100% maintenance.

These numbers seem to vary slightly though, at times I've seen infantry cost as little as 0.15 per month at full size and maintenance. Maybe the sliders affecting troop cost also affect maintenance cost?
 

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That might be it, because i am sure i have had 0.7 ducate cav costs in my current switzerland game...
...maybe i was over my forcelimit? Though i guess i was not... since it was 1615 and i was no longer a minor...
Hmm...

Maybe increased morale means increased costs? Or less? LT level? :confused:
 

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Full monthly maintenance in 1.2.1 seems to be 1/40 of the purchase cost (after modifiers). So everyone will have different costs depending on their slider settings and inflation.

EDIT: and in v1.1 and earlier it was 1/60 of the purchase cost.
 
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jdrou said:
and inflation.
Okay, that might explain the 0.7 ducats :D