Just finished my first 2.2 game. My thoughts and suggestions (long rants ahead)

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WhapXI

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So, to clarify, If I have 30 pops and 30 jobs and I build a Research Lab I will then have 30 pops and 32 jobs - will 2 of the already employed Pops move to fill the new Research Lab positions? If so, would these just be ambitious grunts from Districts or could specialists move as well if the new specialist position was deemed more relevant?

Yes, and the former. Pops fill jobs from the top down. Pops will promote to fill ruler jobs and then specialist jobs before filling worker jobs, assuming they have the appropriate citizen rights to promote and things. I would generally suggest to only build things when planets are full or have slight unemployment. Not just to fill building slots.
 

Archael90

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Or replicators. Make minerals from energy, i think this is not a big problem.
Eitherway, there is plenty of minerals in the game, ringworlds do not have to have mining districts or buildings, but what they need is more building, and district spaces.
Also habitats should be bigger :(
 

Typee

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The leisure district is marginally better than a standard holo district, but far worse than any of it's upgrades
Except they don't consume unique resources, thus saving you A LOT of minerals.
People seem to underestimate how many minerals gas refineries guzzle up.
Meaning that you LOSE access to two building slots if you build them
So what? Build more habitats. They are only 3000 alloys. There's no point in trying to cram as much population as possible on every single habitat. It's all about having resource-efficient districts.

Habitat are super strong in this demography-dominated patch to be honest.
Each habitat is an additional "baby factory". They fill up quite fast and then the extra pop can be used to fuel immigration on your other planets, or be relocated. Build a bunch of habitats, then instantly fill up any new planet you colonize.
It's all very good.
 

SpectralShade

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Aye, in the end it boils down to how you imagine it to work I guess. In my 'headcanon' a feat of astro-engineering the scale of a ringworld is carefully controlled by thousands of top tier specialists, its soil composition and density accurately planned in the most cost-space efficient way possible. This is why it's hard for me to immagine something as 'inefficient' as cramping some planets together without an idea of what valuable resources might hide inside them. If it was this way tho, perhaps mining districts of the original planets could be transferred to the new body somehow? Dunno man, it feels whacky in my personal opinion and I'm happy the way the devs made it.

think of it this way:
if you use digging machinery to dig a giant hole in the ground and pours the stuff you dug out somewhere else to build a hill, do you:
a) carefully comb it while transporting it and spent resources on going through everything you dug up before using it to build your hill?
or
b) dump what you dug up in the hill without going thrrough it because you are there to build a hill, not something else...?

Change the scale to moving stellar objects and mashing themtogether to form a 'hill' and I cannot see how anyone doing construction work would even think it was a 'sane' idea to start combing through all that material to split some of the materials away for harvst during construction phase. At least not if you wanted to be within any sort of timeframe between here and eternity considering we are talking about resource deposits that can last throughout the entirity of a games playing length (and then some).
 

Archael90

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And problem with habitats is that their districs are usless. Housing districts gives only housing, and this is ok as long as you can make some jobs. Leisure districts gratns ammenities, but this is local reaource and od you have no pops to consume it, it is useless. Science od ok, but again, od you font have pops to work as scientists, they dont, and science districts do not provide housing. Also you cant build housing buildings on habitats, and only few job habitats, but you have to fill habitat with housing districts.
 

AmpsterMan

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There are two behaviors to default to:
-Pops upgrade to the highest tier
-Pops stay in the tier they are in

Both of these lead to undesired behavior in different contexts. However, the worst case for the first case is that a new specialist building "steals" pops from the lower tiers. The second case is that your specialist buildings remain empty.
The second case, in the worst sense, leaves you no different than you were before and thus doesn't cause economic problems. I think paradox should just switch to the second behavior being default and be done with it.
 

Jazzbanana

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think of it this way:
if you use digging machinery to dig a giant hole in the ground and pours the stuff you dug out somewhere else to build a hill, do you:
a) carefully comb it while transporting it and spent resources on going through everything you dug up before using it to build your hill?
or
b) dump what you dug up in the hill without going thrrough it because you are there to build a hill, not something else...?

Change the scale to moving stellar objects and mashing themtogether to form a 'hill' and I cannot see how anyone doing construction work would even think it was a 'sane' idea to start combing through all that material to split some of the materials away for harvst during construction phase. At least not if you wanted to be within any sort of timeframe between here and eternity considering we are talking about resource deposits that can last throughout the entirity of a games playing length (and then some).
I don't think the metaphore is well suited in this case. Forming a hill is, although simplified, piling dirt together. Scale up the process, use more dirt, and here you made a planet. As I said in my previous message, I don't think this is the case for ringworlds. I think you need to be well aware of the mineral composition, the nutrients and the density of the terrain you use to cover the frame. The final water and landmass can't be just something that happen after you mash together three or four planets and say a magic word. You can't risk tectonic collapse, random sinkholes or earthquakes and you need to account for distribution, composition, mountains range for climate control and dozens of other factors we can't even imagine. Food and energy are renewable resources (and ultimately the same thing), but including extractable-non renewable resource in the soil of a ringworld has to be a deliberate choice, or an irresponsible design oversight.
 

philosophergamer

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2: Pop growth should be almost hard capped at the housing limit, and decline past it.

I strongly disagree with this sentiment as overcrowding is one of the coolest features added in with the expansion. When dealing in the sci-fi realm (hell even in the real world) dealing with ever growing populations and cramming them into tighter more efficient spaces is a thing. Populations are not going to stop breeding or dying off because of an arbitrary housing number. I like that higher population numbers force emigration or for the player to actually manage it. I hated how population was so static in previous versions once you filled up all the tiles on a planet.

4: Ringworlds should be a size 25 with more efficient districts and mining districts.

I don't necessarily think they should have mining districts but they definitely need to be much more powerful to be worth the investment. If not mining bays then maybe some form of matter replication or dark matter or nanite sectors to make them a little more self sufficient. Also, would give us something to actually use dark matter or nanites on.

6: Ascension paths should be given more love, perhaps with more unique buildings and worlds.

Completely agree. The Ascension paths need to be fleshed out a lot more. We need more variation, tech choices, buildings and flavor events. Synthetic Ascension is alright but what if I only want to be a cyborg? How do my populations feel about merging organic and machine life? Am I Dominion style geneticist breeding a master race or subject species or a benevolent species mastering their own genetic codes? What about potential diseases or consequences brought about by our tampering... Events! Events! Events.

New features are cool but they need to update and revisit some of the older ones.
 

QuietusStar

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Good micro is good. Time in Stellaris is mostly just lookin how it looks, or minimize the game and watch some film, but with some micro you have to do something. Microing buidings, and jobs is a good thing. You dont have to be afraid of unemployement, wait for 1-3 unemployed pops before building new building, or just dont care about deficits. Of course there are some flaws that have to be done, im saying that new system is good, but not perfect.

Habitats are usless, i agree. Maybe changing hab districts so every would provide housing (its habitat after all) without specialized housing districts?

Ringworlds should not provide minerals. All minerals from system was used to build that things, and "mining" them again would be pointless in best case, and structure damageing in worst. But i think that ringworlds are too small... but this is just an opinion... like everything.

Gaia terraforming is just bugged ;/ but... how it could gives something on a planet? Maybe uncover hidden mines, or such? hm...
The micro is subjective. I suppose some people might like having to enter a drop down menu and disabling jobs until the ones you want fill up, and then reenabling them once your pops have grown, but I don't find that engaging or intuitive. If instead of disabling jobs you could encourage certain jobs that would be better. Then you wouldn't have to reenter the planet's job's drop down menu to reenable anything.
And for minerals on a ringworld, you could easily justify it as mining or scavenging from stored leftover planetary chunks. You could even give the job a different name like prospectors or something like that.
Except they don't consume unique resources, thus saving you A LOT of minerals.
People seem to underestimate how many minerals gas refineries guzzle up.

So what? Build more habitats. They are only 3000 alloys. There's no point in trying to cram as much population as possible on every single habitat. It's all about having resource-efficient districts.

Habitat are super strong in this demography-dominated patch to be honest.
Each habitat is an additional "baby factory". They fill up quite fast and then the extra pop can be used to fuel immigration on your other planets, or be relocated. Build a bunch of habitats, then instantly fill up any new planet you colonize.
It's all very good.
The point is that habitats would never be able to become my research worlds. Sure, those 3 researcher slots are better than a normal lab, but it can never hold a candle to a 10 research slot building. The districts are unilaterally worse than buildings if you're only interested in the number of pop jobs. Not to mention the fact that you lose out on an extra two building slots as they don't provide any housing, which is really not that efficient to me. The only efficient district is the housing one, which just one can unlock two slots. So if the most efficient district easily unlocks building slots, why not just specialize habitats for buildings instead of giving them districts which provide no housing and do not scale well at all. But this is just my opinion, I want more for habitats than to just be small space baby making factories, and this seems like the easiest solution.
I strongly disagree with this sentiment as overcrowding is one of the coolest features added in with the expansion. When dealing in the sci-fi realm (hell even in the real world) dealing with ever growing populations and cramming them into tighter more efficient spaces is a thing. Populations are not going to stop breeding or dying off because of an arbitrary housing number. I like that higher population numbers force emigration or for the player to actually manage it. I hated how population was so static in previous versions once you filled up all the tiles on a planet.
In real life, populations do tend to stagnate, especially once their quality of life improves, I just think that the housing cap should be a better, more natural limit to pop growth than declaring only one child per parent and sending immigrants off elsewhere once you've deemed that the planet should finish growing. Indeed, rapid breeders, immigrants, and especially refugees could still cause an overcrowding stir, I just hate having to constantly check into every world to see if it's at a suitable pop number so that I can declare the world done myself.
 

AlanC9

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Why do ringworlds need mining? Extra food and energy can buy minerals. Hell, skip the middleman and buy alloys.
 

bananafish2828

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I am in the midst of wrapping up a game, my first successful play through on 2.2 (3rd game) - basically i've been waiting for the game to end in the remaining 80 years. i've defeated the crisis (unbidden) and is the dominant power. defeated both fallen empires in the 'War of Heavens' and making all other empires tributaries.

The 1st 2 times my economy unexpectedly crashed because of the building too many buildings without enough population to fill them and i would find myself in a deficit of resources when a large number shifted to the specialist jobs, not realizing that i couldn't move workers to where i needed them.

My thought is for an authoritative regimes, hive minds and gestalt consciousness is for them to have an option of 'Planned Economy' where at a penalty they can assign specialists to worker jobs and vice-versa.

I liked it in the past where you can achieve victory by fulfilling some victory conditions or someway for the game to acknowledge your win without having to wait until the end date. My score is 110k while the next closest one is less than 19k.
 

QuietusStar

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Why do ringworlds need mining? Extra food and energy can buy minerals. Hell, skip the middleman and buy alloys.
The way I like to play the game is a rather tall empire that eventually moves onto ringworlds and habitats, and whatever few planets I have could never make enough minerals to keep up with those. And since gestalt consciousness empires have access to nearly limitless mineral districts, why not extend the same to non gestalt empires. Plus I really like to make my empires self sufficient, and not reliant on the price of a certain resource to keep my entire economy afloat.
 

Mergoth

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It's super amusing.
Playing as hive-mind. Wanting to build a Maintains Depot for drones in advance. Building finished. Now 5 Agri Drones rushes to take on Maintains Drones jobs. On your "bread basket" work with huge bonuses to agri production. -50 food per month incoming.
Same planet. Decide to add a Generator district since all Agri ones are full and i don't have enough POPs for building and fill it up bit by bit. Agri drones rushed there, so i have to disable energy jobs and add them back one by one then new POP is born. Totally thought out mechanic and totally not micro-heavy.

Yeah, the problem is that you can only deprioritize the specialist jobs AFTER the workers fill them, so then you would have to wait for them to demote... It would be great if pops promoted to a higher strata the next month, so you can block those jobs before they promote.
 

Cahokia

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I apologize for the wall of text, I absolutely love ringworlds in this game and real life (build multiple everytime) and want to clarify some things and potentially point out the direction I think they should be going in.

I'm curious if any of you have read Ringworld? It had a diameter of one million miles and the surface area of 3 million Earths. It is only 100 feet thick, and they used scrith (special alloy) to give it the strength it needed and to explain away science. The reason the civilizations on it weren't able to recover after something I won't ruin for you is because there were no metals in the soil since they were all used to produce said scrith. (Of course there were some outliers but they were reusing materials from the builders and they had help.) Larry Niven used roughly all the mass in our solar system as a basis to calculate how large he could create the Ringworld. And the thickness of the ringworld was a constant 100 feet even when there were hills/mountains/valleys/oceans and the bottom of the ringworld was an inverse topography of the surface. Because the amount of material needed was MASSIVE to create such a large structure.

I point out this information on ringworlds since it is easy to forget about the scale of these megastructure's when your in-game. Now as far as balance, there should absolutely not be a single mineral deposit in that system. If you notice there are some asteroid belts in game that don't have mineral deposits. This leads to the theory that only truly rich deposits are worth mining, so the handful of rocks that could possibly be left in the system after construction wouldn't be worth the power the ships used to get to them. I applaud the developers for staying true to this part of the lore and removing mineral deposits from ringworlds. And the fact that they made it an alloy cost is awesome since you need a special alloy to maintain the structural integrity of such a thin slice of a structure. Its not random rocks thrown together, its a specially designed material to create such an engineering marvel. And I absolutely don't believe they should bring the matter converter building back because I love the challenge of maximizing my mineral output late game and now that they have the market a matter converter is pointless too since you can just buy minerals (and yes that should be very costly to do).

I also love that they doubled the number of districts which helps in establishing what the ringworlds were built for, to house a LOT of people. However, the fact that ecumenopoli have been brought into the game (which I love and I like where they are at) deflates the usefulness of ringworlds. A size 25 ecumenopoli without modifiers creates 375 housing if its all city districts. One section of the ringworld again without modifiers creates 250 housing if its all city districts. The fact that ecumenopoli are so much easier to get and you can spam multiple in the mid game creating more housing than one ringworld section for almost the same cost of minerals(and without the jobs needed to turn those minerals into alloys) means there is no point to building ringworlds unless you need food/building slots (27,500 minerals to turn into alloys factoring in frame cost/section). A size 16 planet that is turned into an ecumenopoli will give the same level of housing as one ringworld section, take that in. Not to mention that ecumenopoli have special districts that are very powerful, and all this to say I think ecumenopoli are great right where they are at since they are huge investment and they are balanced against the current planets with their job/pop ratio.

However (and I may lose people here) if I am investing into a ringworld, it should be on a magnitude larger cost than a measly ecumenopoli. Thematically building a ringworld is the largest feat of engineering you can perform in Stellaris, and it should feel like it. Right now, having one is great but its not game changing and they don't have enough space (building slots) so you just keep making more. If you build a ringworld it should be the last one you ever need to build and you should never be able to fill it. There should always be room to build another building, and this is my biggest gripe with ringworlds right now. They don't feel big enough and you should be able to build enough buildings for everyone to have a job (and not be working energy or food districts). The whole point of a ringworld is to have essentially infinite space for a species (their purpose).

Now I am recommending upping the cost to build a ringworld since for the cost of about 6-8 battleships you can create a ringworld section (!?!?!). This is absurd, period. In return for upping the cost, we make them feel more impactful. Now I know the reason they are so weak right now is because if you increased the time to build them no one would ever have time to finish them and you don't want to throw the balance off compared to the other empires if someone had one. The solution to this would be reducing the usefulness of ringworlds you find in the galaxy (ruined and fallen empire) by making them almost as costly as building your own. You do this by making the cheapest part of the process the site and frame stage (which is realistic) and they could stay at current costs. You then increase the cost to build the sections which you can do one of two ways. You could increase the number of sections (which I think is unlikely since developers would also have to change the artwork/models) or you could directly increase the cost of building each section. By directly increasing the cost of each section you are maintaining the same pop growth speed and building speed they currently have which helps keep them balanced against other options.

No matter which way you increase their usefulness, they need to be at the same job/pop ratio as regular planets if you are building entirely city districts. You can go about that multiple ways but with the current model you are forced to build food and energy districts after you max out the jobs in the building slots. This is limiting their usefulness cause you don't need 100 districts per ringworld dedicated to food (I know there is energy but honestly trade has made that irrelevant). While I agree they should be able to make absurd amounts of food/energy they shouldn't be forced to if you want to make a metropolis for one of your sections. When an ecumenopoli makes a better capital than a ringworld, you have a problem.

So if you want to do a half fix, double their building slots and this would make them somewhat satisfactory. If you want to tackle them more seriously, double or triple the ringworld section cost and double the districts while quadrupling the building slots. This would make them feel far larger and more impactful when you get one. This may seem like a massive buff, but the fact that you would still only have four 'planets' when it comes to pop growth and building speed means you would never be able to fill them with enough buildings and pops to benefit fully from the increased space. It actually would make them less useful for a min/max setup since 16 habitats would cost almost half or a quarter the alloys depending, and give the same number of building slots which is frankly where all the usefulness/flavor/strength of a planet comes from anyway. And those 16 habitats would massively increase your pop growth to unheard of levels.

This buff/mostly nerf would make a ringworld truly feel like the crowning achievement of your empire and make it an envy of the galaxy. It should feel like the greatest accomplishment of your empire, not oh lets go build another. It needs to absolutely drain your wealth but at the same time feel as big as it really is. If we were being accurate a ringworld would have roughly 48 million districts if Earth was a 16 district planet. We obviously cant do that in game but we could make them feel far larger which is their entire point. By the time I build a ringworld I have about 3 ecumenopoli that are decently full with feeder worlds and there is no reason to have a ringworld at that point(also true since ecumenopoli are far stronger in the building category). Those 3 ecumenopoli house more people and give more jobs so why don't I just build another instead of a ringworld?

Keeping the same build time for the ringworld would help it stay relevant and the alloy cost and pop growth speed would be the biggest thing keeping it from getting out of control. Lets face it, building slots aren't whats going to make a ringworld strong its the number of pops on them. Pops are king in 2.2 and the more breeding grounds you have the better. So keeping ringworlds this small isn't keeping them balanced, its making them boring. Cause right now any other option is better for housing and I should never feel like an ecumenopoli is a better option than a ringworld section for housing/jobs.

My main complaint is the building slot/planet size ratio is off making them less useful and if I really got what I wanted the fact that they are too cheap and small.

To sum up changes:
100 districts/section
64 building slots/section
2-3 times ringworld section cost (possibly site and frame too)
Increase influence cost too (this is the greatest achievement your empire will ever do)
Fun
 

Scorpio_Shirica

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yeah, if ringworlds had more building slots, then they may actually be useful despite having no minerals or natural resources. but i don't tend to need giant farm or generator worlds when playing tall so they feel extremely weak limited to those districts.
 

Cahokia

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Exactly. That's their biggest weakness right now is a poor building slots/districts ratio. So the 50 districts sounds really cool but its not as useful as it appears.
 

Aotrs Commander

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I think the problem might be that you might struggle to fit more than sixteen buildings slots in a "planet." (Without completely re-designing that screen for the sake of accomodating ringworlds alone.)

A compromise might be to have ringworlds have more than four sections (you might as well keep the same cost as it is now for each section).

You might even be able to achieve, without having to completely re-design the interface, some sort of automatic migration system (possibly even at a decent modder level) something such that a ringworld's unemployed pops will automatically migrate (maybe instantly, if they don't now) to the next or any section of the ringworld that has available jobs.

That would give you effectively a your higher construction cost for a "complete" ringworld, and effectively your additional building slots and have the ringworld be slightly more interconnected.
 

Pragmatic

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Habitats (what I've picked up from the forums, haven't built them myself yet).

They seem to have a few niches.

Border systems, fill them up with fortresses (and planetary shield?), and the AI will take a lot of effort to reduce them. (I don't play MP, can fellow players bypass them? Or do the have to capture to go to the next system?)

Research, their building doesn't require rare resources. Upgraded research buildings on planets do.

Small one- or two-job manufacturing and refining buildings (e.g., to turn minerals onto rare resources), those work well with habitats. Frees up building slots on planets, to fill with buildings that have lots of jobs.

Resource silos. Late game requires large stockpiles of resources. Rather than using precious slots in star bases or on planets, create a habitat or two and fill with silos (and clerk jobs).

Population, habitats are small, so they have emigration pressure, to help grow the bigger worlds.

----------

I add my own observations:
Orbital deposits seem less important in 2.2, so a habitat can be put there instead.

And habitats (and gateways) aren't included in the "one mega being built at a time" limit, so you can fill out your systems while building the megas you REALLY want.
 

Cahokia

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That is why one of the options I gave was to have more sections since they may not want to add a scroll wheel to the building area of the UI. But I figured that would be easier than the graphical work needed to change the ringworld model by adding more sections. However the problem with this is that you now have more 'planets' which massively boosts your population growth and build speed since its divided by more 'planets'. Don't underestimate how long it would take to fill up a size 100 section with districts and buildings. It would also allow people to get a quicker return on their investment if there were more sections since it would also be cheaper/faster to build.

So it really depends on whether you wanted to make them stronger (more sections) or minimize cost to development with building slot UI change. I'm not a developer by any means but I assume a scroll wheel is faster to develop than a new graphical model. Frankly I'm neutral on whether to have more sections or bigger sections since both would give the same effect I'm looking for (more impactful/meaningful/larger ringworlds). Both ways Aotrs Commander I would be happy with.

And I love your idea of ringworlds being more interconnected (which they should be) when it comes to migration but I don't want to ask too much of them and I understand they needed to split it into multiple sections for game purposes. Start with the biggest gripes and work my way down. ;)
 

anamiac

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There are two behaviors to default to:
-Pops upgrade to the highest tier
-Pops stay in the tier they are in

Both of these lead to undesired behavior in different contexts. However, the worst case for the first case is that a new specialist building "steals" pops from the lower tiers. The second case is that your specialist buildings remain empty.
The second case, in the worst sense, leaves you no different than you were before and thus doesn't cause economic problems. I think paradox should just switch to the second behavior being default and be done with it.
This! Make the second the default, and create a policy option so people can switch to the first policy if they prefer it.