Just an opinion: should the Stalin's Purge really be in the game?

[Aeroclub]

Hey guys, so I just wanted to gather some of your opinions on the question in the title. I mean, don't get me wrong - I think the Purge the way it is represented now is a very good gameplay mechanic that forces you to chose between the different generals/advisors and so on...these are some hard choices that make the game fun and that all countries could use more of!

That being said, there are very good reasons why some of the bad things that have happened in the Nazi Germany aren't included in the scope of the game. So why should the similarly bad things that have happened in the Soviet Union be treated differently?

The reason I've been thinking about it now is that Barbarossa will presumably come with a much more in-depth Soviet focus tree...which would probably lead to a more in-depth and detailed Purge...which, I'm afraid, might turn the Soviet gameplay into a genocide simulator or something. That is definitely not the direction that I want this game to take.

 

[grommile]

the purge as written isn't quite as whitewashed as the Reich, but it's still whitewashed.

you don't lose or relocate any population (excess deaths due to purge violence were on the order of 1% of the population, and a bunch of people got shipped to the hind-end of nowhere), just a slice of your named characters.

the main problem with the purge is that its design is terrible and encourages you to make counterhistorical choices because e.g. Krushchev isn't useful but the person you have to purge to keep him alive is very useful.

also because, like, it's one big hit of purging, with no representation of later purging and rehabilitation.

and 210-day focuses are objectively terrible and need to be thrown in the bin.

 

[Aeroclub]

the purge as written isn't quite as whitewashed as the Reich, but it's still whitewashed.

you don't lose or relocate any population (excess deaths due to purge violence were on the order of 1% of the population, and a bunch of people got shipped to the hind-end of nowhere), just a slice of your named characters.

See, I don't mind whitewashing things in a game about moving divisions around.

Also, there is no "good" way to represent any of the terrible things that have happened in either the Reich or the SU in terms of gameplay mechanics...like, what, lose 1% of population and gain infrastructure in Siberia or something?

I think the only way to avoid the awkward whitewashed representation that exists atm is for the game to decide whether it wants to focus on warfare/production or internal politics and crimes against humanity.

The devs have claimed that HoI4 is a game about the former. And the way the Reich works is a proof of that. But then, that begs the question of why is the Stalin's purge still there?

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

The Purge only exists to represent the impacts it had on the soviet military.
You choose between a bunch of officers and gain military penalties for a while after.
All the rest of the "baggage" and civilian impact are not represented and will likely never be.

The "Bad things" the Reich did are also technicaly present (only in its effects regarding the military aspect), namely the Fascist-exclusive occupation law "Brutal Oppression".

 

[HugsAndSnuggles]

To be fair, there's also a hint of British-induced famine in India now, so it's not just Purge.

 

[Camtheman]

the purge as written isn't quite as whitewashed as the Reich, but it's still whitewashed.

you don't lose or relocate any population (excess deaths due to purge violence were on the order of 1% of the population, and a bunch of people got shipped to the hind-end of nowhere), just a slice of your named characters.

the main problem with the purge is that its design is terrible and encourages you to make counterhistorical choices because e.g. Krushchev isn't useful but the person you have to purge to keep him alive is very useful.

also because, like, it's one big hit of purging, with no representation of later purging and rehabilitation.

and 210-day focuses are objectively terrible and need to be thrown in the bin.

Just want to chime in and say screw focuses longer than 70 days. Mexico has two, netherlands has one, honestly why torture us?

 

[Aeroclub]

The Purge only exists to represent the impacts it had on the soviet military.
You choose between a bunch of officers and gain military penalties for a while after.
All the rest of the "baggage" and civilian impact are not represented and will likely never be.

That's not really true though! The whole reason to do the Purge is to get your stability up, that's the civilian impact right there!

I mean, Germany doesn't need to do a focus of [Do a heinous crime -> improve Stability], and I totally agree with that. Yet this is exactly what the SU has.

Did the Nazi Germany become more "stable" (in gameplay terms!) because of the things that they did? Probably. But we don't (and should not) have that in the game (even Ernst Thälmann stays alive the entire time). But neither should we have that for the Soviets.

 

[edhunter76]

It should be in the game. Soviet Purge had direct impact on Soviet army thus reducing its capability significantly. German atrocities shouldn't be in the game as they had direct impact on civilians, thus very little to do with game play. That's the difference.

 

[qer]

It should be in the game. Soviet Purge had direct impact on Soviet army thus reducing its capability significantly. German atrocities shouldn't be in the game as they had direct impact on civilians, thus very little to do with game play. That's the difference.

German atrocities did have an effect on their ability to wage war, so by that metric they should be included as well. Ofc there is a reason as to why they need to keep the game about one of the darkest period of human history as sanitazed as possible, and the argument of the OP makes sense from that point of view. IMO I would prefer the opposite approach and make the game actually historical, with all the bad things that happen included.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

That's not really true though! The whole reason to do the Purge is to get your stability up, that's the civilian impact right there!

I mean, Germany doesn't need to do a focus of [Do a heinous crime -> improve Stability], and I totally agree with that. Yet this is exactly what the SU has.

Did the Nazi Germany become more "stable" (in gameplay terms!) because of the things that they did? Probably. But we don't (and should not) have that in the game (even Ernst Thälmann stays alive the entire time). But neither should we have that for the Soviets.

The stability hit (and looming civil war) exist because otherwise nobody in their right mind would do the purge and take the Military hits They have to give you a incentive to do it.

Besides the stability hit isn't "civilian impact" at all, its political instability of having voices of opposition in positions of power, (or at least in Stalin's head).
The Purge as it is does not reflect the harming of civilians in any shape or form.

 

[Aeroclub]

German atrocities did have an effect on their ability to wage war, so by that metric they should be included as well. Ofc there is a reason as to why they need to keep the game about one of the darkest period of human history as sanitazed as possible, and the argument of the OP makes sense from that point of view. IMO I would prefer the opposite approach and make the game actually historical, with all the bad things that happen included.

I wouldn't want the game to be like that, but that's just the personal preference.

I think the main point still stands: either represent all the bad things (the Purge, Nazi crimes, and yes, the Indian famine), or none at all.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

German atrocities did have an effect on their ability to wage war, so by that metric they should be included as well

The effects of the Nazi atrocities on their ability to wage war are reflected on "Brutal Oppression" occupation laws.

 

[Aeroclub]

The Purge as it is does not reflect the harming of civilians in any shape or form.

I disagree. Stability is not just PP gain, it's also factory output and construction speed. If that is not a civilian impact, then what is? You literally click a button that says "Purge" and suddenly all your workers start working harder. Come on, man.

 

[coffeelingfine]

Just want to chime in and say screw focuses longer than 70 days. Mexico has two, netherlands has one, honestly why torture us?

Ideally focuses would be no longer than 50 days. Played with a mod that shortened them to 50 and now even 70 feels too long

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

I disagree. Stability is not just PP gain, it's also factory output and construction speed. If that is not a civilian impact, then what is? You literally click a button that says "Purge" and suddenly all your workers start working harder. Come on, man.

Administrative efficiency, a centralised economy like the Soviet Union is HEAVILY dependent on the organisation and cooperation within the government apparatus.

 

[edhunter76]

German atrocities did have an effect on their ability to wage war, so by that metric they should be included as well. Ofc there is a reason as to why they need to keep the game about one of the darkest period of human history as sanitazed as possible, and the argument of the OP makes sense from that point of view. IMO I would prefer the opposite approach and make the game actually historical, with all the bad things that happen included.

Yes and no. For example the Holocaust doesn't have anything to do with game play and it shouldn't have any place in a video game. Paradox have said number of times that it will never be part of their games and that they won't ever even discuss about it and that's the way it should be.

 

[Aeroclub]

It should be in the game. Soviet Purge had direct impact on Soviet army thus reducing its capability significantly. German atrocities shouldn't be in the game as they had direct impact on civilians, thus very little to do with game play. That's the difference.

People keep saying this and I kind of get the feeling that this was the devs intention as well...But that's just not the way it actually is implemented.

The purge is NOT just about your officer selection or org bonuses. If it was, they could just have an event along the lines "Either Tukhachevsky or Rokossovsky have got to go, your choice". Something like that would've been a representation of purge's effect on the military.

But instead, the main thing about the purge is the stab, so civilian impact. The game incentives you to click the "Terrorize your population" button so that the rest of them work harder.

 

[Aeroclub]

Administrative efficiency, a centralised economy like the Soviet Union is HEAVILY dependent on the organisation and cooperation within the government apparatus.

For sure! But that's the effect of the purge on civilian economy, not on the military high command.

 

[Aeroclub]

For example the Holocaust doesn't have anything to do with game play and it shouldn't have any place in a video game. Paradox have said number of times that it will never be part of their games and that they won't ever even discuss about it and that's the way it should be.

Agree 100%! The only reason I brought this up is that the list of the bad things that are left out of the game has to be expanded beyond just one of them.

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

eople keep saying this and I kind of get the feeling that this was the devs intention as well...But that's just not the way it actually is implemented.

The purge is NOT just about your officer selection or org bonuses. If it was, they could just have an event along the lines "Either Tukhachevsky or Rokossovsky have got to go, your choice". Something like that would've been a representation of purge's effect on the military.

But instead, the main thing about the purge is the stab, so civilian impact. The game incentives you to click the "Terrorize your population" button so that the rest of them work harder.

Simply put, you are wrong.
It is about "Either Tukhachevsky or Rokossovsky have got to go, your choice", that'sall the events you get and choices you make.
It is not about terrorizing your population, as there is no hint of that being the case.

There is no mention to the harm of civilians in any event, tooltip or news, and the effects in stability are abstracted effects meant to represent whatever they are meant to represent.
You want it to represent civilians working harder because they are afraid of getting killed, but that is your headcanon, not the game's canon, the game makes no insinuation of that being the case whatsoever.

Feel free to "respectfully disagree" as much as you like. I'm done discussing this. And at the end of the day this is pointless since it will probably be tweaked in Barbarossa anyway.