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stoferb

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Perhaps it's even easily moddable. I don't know. But can this game please stop killing my heirs because they are good? It's ridiculous that every heir with great stats is almost guaranteed to die while every completely worthless heir is almost guaranteed to survive. Great ruler stats are rare enough as it is. It doesn't add to gameplay, strategy, immersion nor realism to kill most of them prematurely. It seems to be merely a feature for trolling the player. And don't pretend like there isn't a hidden hier death modifier for the human player tied to stats.
 
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grommile

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What's your sample size? How carefully have you been collecting your data?

And why, without substantive evidence carefully presented, are you accusing Paradox of lying about this?
 

Karnak

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At the very least, he's saying that heirs that are above normal still have the same ability to die early.
How are they above average if they have the same chance to die and do so before they have even proven their ability?

I still remember my Alexander-quality heir taking over after his poor dad when he died at 64, dying two years after at 22. For no reason.

It would be nice to see some degrees of 'death'. Instead of dying outright, a ruler/heir can have an accident that reduces their stats or some such from events.
Normal 'aging', should only reduce stats with increasing frequency rather than 'killing' a ruler outright.
Without an event, without being a general, with no reason there is no cause for a 22-year old to fall over barring a hidden heart condition. And that should be an event.


CK2 is more successful for GOOD REASONS, and one of those reasons that PI are still stubbornly refusing to acknowledge is that they have a deeper character mechanic, and also the world can interact with its characters in better ways.
Instead of dying in combat, generals could become wounded and lose 1 point of shock if in a shock phase, fire if fire phase etc.
It was not at all uncommon for generals leading from the front in the EU timeframe to get wounded in the line of duty, and for battles to be lost as a result.

The same thing needs to be put in place for ruler stats, in my opinion. Whenever a ruler develops a condition, it should gradually reflect on his ability to rule, not kill him outright.
The same way we did not like the meteor mechanic since it was arbitrary, severe and punishing success, we do not like our leaders' health to behave arbitrarily and severely punish our good luck.

With high enough stats, the expected loss increases more and more until the system is guaranteed to screw us over.
After all, we do not remember the RULERS we lose to the game's crappy, blackbox system. We remember STATS we lose to the crappy system.
 

grommile

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Without an event, without being a general, with no reason there is no cause for a 22-year old to fall over barring a hidden heart condition. And that should be an event.
It's funny you mention CK2, because CK2 has people drop dead in their 20s for "natural causes" too. (Remember, most of those hidden heart conditions are not so much "hidden" as "completely beyond the ability of period medical science to detect".)
 

Karnak

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It's funny you mention CK2, because CK2 has people drop dead in their 20s for "natural causes" too. (Remember, most of those hidden heart conditions are not so much "hidden" as "completely beyond the ability of period medical science to detect".)
Death in CK2 is usually due to mismanagement of your character. How about you start to contribute rather than sneer at every suggestion?
 

grommile

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Death in CK2 is usually due to mismanagement of your character.
Usually. But unless they've adjusted things recently, natural-causes death at 25 is still one of the things that people complain about regularly on the CK2 forum.

Of course, EU4 is not a character management game.

How about you start to contribute rather than sneer at every suggestion?
The last sentence of the OP effectively accuses Paradox of lying, and doesn't provide any hard data to back it up. I think that invites disdain.
 

Wizzington

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Unfortunately Visual Studio can't debug confirmation bias.
 
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Karnak

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I think that invites disdain.
I agree. Accepting that invitation and expecting others to rally behind you in support is not a mark of strength, though.
Let the ignorant be ignorant, or rise above them.

Unfortunately Visual Studio can't debug confirmation bias.
Well he has a point. Losing a good heir or ruler before they have had a chance to shine hurts.
It's more of a suggestion than a bug though, i admit that.

You guys remove things like the Burgundian inheritance for players, as well as becoming a minor under Poland as Lithuania.
Even if it's 'right', it affects player enjoyment and choice negatively. Sadly, confirmation bias is one of our human qualities, and needs to be taken into account as well.
It only fires when we perceive that injustice has been made, and so is an excellent indication where improvements are needed.

The fact is that a good heir has an expected benefit, that only comes into play after a cool-down period equal to the time before he becomes a ruler.
But he dies before that.
We can compare that to saving up for a game as a kid, that turned out rubbish. Waiting for a DLC that wasn't all that great. etc etc

Disappointment fires confirmation bias.
 

Ktanzei

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Sorry, I don't see this as a problem either. Yes, my 5/6/5 heir died and I'm super bitter about it but you know what? So did my Castillian Enrique the Zero 2 years after the game started. And then the Ottomans inherited Morocco and Byzantium turned muslim. Look, my point here is that things happen in the game. That's the whole point of the game. Some of those things are bad and those we remember with much ire. But apart from the lack of human randomly occurring insta-death-by-nation, we're supposed to play by as close to the same rules as the AI as possible. There is no point in pandering to confirmation bias when the whole game is built upon semi-random things happening to everyone.
 

Karnak

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I am fine with random things happening, but i'd like some type of cushion for this kind of severe event beyond my control.
I am completely unable to affect ruler or heir death, barring not setting them as generals.

Losing a 5/5/5 ruler and gaining a normal 3/3/3, will over 50 years cost you a total of 3600 MP. That's more than one full idea group. That's 360 buildings!

Just adding an option when a ruler dies to have him truly die, or to have him continue on with a stat penalty would be fine.
It would be something analogue to the medicus/pray situation, where you have some kind of choice of what happens to the heir.
 

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I think it's just because people are more aware of what happens to your 5/5/5 heir, rather than your 3/3/3 heir. You'll not remember the second one died, but you'll always remember that time when your 5/5/5 heir died. I'm playing a game with Portugal, where in 200 years i already had a 0/2/3 and a 4/1/0 heirs dying before rising to king status. Should i believe that Paradox has a hidden rule to kill bad heirs?
Life expectation those days was nothing compared to these days, and people died for the most commom things (hunting accidents, assassinations, diseases, etc...) at an age that today would be considered "oh, he died so young".
 

Ktanzei

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I am fine with random things happening, but i'd like some type of cushion for this kind of severe event beyond my control.
I am completely unable to affect ruler or heir death, barring not setting them as generals.

Losing a 5/5/5 ruler and gaining a normal 3/3/3, will over 50 years cost you a total of 3600 MP. That's more than one full idea group. That's 360 buildings!

Just adding an option when a ruler dies to have him truly die, or to have him continue on with a stat penalty would be fine.
It would be something analogue to the medicus/pray situation, where you have some kind of choice of what happens to the heir.

Alright, that's a reasonable point but that's rather a suggestion to allow the player to influence our monarchs/heirs and their stats (which I agree with), I'm pretty sure I've seen that quite a few times somewhere or other in this forum. I think we wouldn't get this upset if we had a whole mechanic about monarch stats, claim strengths and so on as it would be less potentially gamebreaking if a ruler/heir dies.
 

TheMeInTeam

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Confirmation Bias at its finest. You should gather a huge sample size before you make these kind of suggestions. I can, however, understand the frustration behind it.

The truly frustrating part, that has nothing to do with confirmation bias, is the design that you *can* have such drastically different access to crucial resources on a small amount of RNG calls. In other words, too much is staked on too few rolls. Compare the number of rolls to resolve a single battle to that of a ruler. You get more RNG in one close-ish (the only time the dice matter much) battle than you get from 1/4 of the game's entire timeline in rulers. People use confirmation bias in both cases, but being screwed over by a string of bad combat rolls to the point of significantly hampered game progress is a *lot* less likely...AND there is a *lot* more player agency in impacting the battlefield on top of it.

But then derp have a 1 3 0 ruler get wrecked scrub. What's that? You're focusing MIL? Lol, so is the 2 2 6 guy, who across 20 years 1440 MIL points on you, buys a tech ahead-of-years around 10 years ahead and face rolls your sorry *** with a shock 4 general (he rerolled 5x to get it) and a tactics lead. Maybe you need to learn how to play the game better. Skill can overcome a .25 tactics lead and +3 shock advantage you see.

It doesn't matter that between two players, either one is equally likely to get that kind of advantage. What matters is that such an advantage is far more likely to manifest in crappy monarch ruler stats than in any other RNG call in the game (simply because there are fewer rolls for any smoothing effect), coupled with the limited player agency to influence it in any reasonable capacity.

While the OP is pure confirmation bias, the underlying issue here...an uninteresting mechanic with very limited agency either helping or screwing you at random...is very real and has been a sore spot in this game's design since day 0. That's before we even talk about the ahistorical, agameplay nonsense that is "regency councils can't declare wars", which somehow even with + 250% chance of heirs your heir dying why your ruler is 60 still leaves you with 0 backups and now way of knowing that unless your heir dies...not that it would matter because for some reason you can't influence it.

Of course, the government type that allows you to avoid all this absurdity, republics, is limited to an extremely small band of choices OR forces you to wade through two often-suboptimal idea groups during the most crucial period where your monarch stats matter the most...early on before +3 advisors.

The way rulers work now is comparable to combat being decided by whoever does more damage on the first dice roll, then the "loser" gets stack wiped on the spot. It's not quite that extreme, but it's cut from the same cloth. I doubt many people would find that fun, but maybe I'm wrong. After all, the current model has a lot of staunch defenders with a hefty lack of any reasoning why it's good for it to be this way, so maybe people would enjoy insta-wipes on 1 dice roll, too. It would have a similar impact on the importance of managing war resources as monarchs have right now.
 
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kralex

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TL;DR: moar dynasty mechanics.

(but seriously, I agree with practically every posting in this thread. The sucktitude of losing a good heir or ruler may be amplified by confirmation bias, but that doesn't make it suck any less when it happens)
 

Karnak

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There has been plenty of suggestions for how to best smooth out the sudden changes in MP income, we only have to pray that PI actually decide to take this issue to heart.
Completely off-the-hook monarch stats was fine in eu3, where they did not have such a direct impact on everything that you were trying to do!