I was curious if "Bosniaks" (for Bosnia) are in EU4 (I know they were in EU3). I realize they wouldn't be there at the earliest start point but should be soon after.
Just a question, please no politics
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Country of Bosnia exists in both EU3 and EU4. It is Serbian and Orthodox in both EU3 and EU4.
Bosniak culture doesnt exist in EU3 and it doesnt exist in EU4 either. AFAIK it only exists in Vicky2?
When do you think Bosniak Bosnia should exist?
Bosniak culture doesnt exist in EU3 and it doesnt exist in EU4 either. AFAIK it only exists in Vicky2?
When do you think Bosniak Bosnia should exist?
Well, I would suggest that all Bosnians of this period were reffered to as Bosniaks (or Bosnjani). (but you had three religions, Orthodox, Catholic, and Bogomil)
What some people are doing, who don't understand context, is looking at the King's name, and with today's notions of the nation-state/ethnicity saying, this guy was Serb. Therefore, one of the peoples of Bosnia are "Serbs".
So we can't use modern concepts, like that of the nation-state or "ethnicity", and apply it to this time period. When a person reffered to himself as "Croat", this was simply in relation to the territory in which they live. People fought for the king, not the country. There didn't exist this notion of fighting for "Croat" people because the didn't think about it along those lines.
In any way, not at all meant to start some flame war, just my view on it.
What some people are doing, who don't understand context, is looking at the King's name, and with today's notions of the nation-state/ethnicity saying, this guy was Serb. Therefore, one of the peoples of Bosnia are "Serbs".
So we can't use modern concepts, like that of the nation-state or "ethnicity", and apply it to this time period. When a person reffered to himself as "Croat", this was simply in relation to the territory in which they live. People fought for the king, not the country. There didn't exist this notion of fighting for "Croat" people because the didn't think about it along those lines.
In any way, not at all meant to start some flame war, just my view on it.
It's almost impossible to go there without politics, I'll make myself some popcorn 
I'll avoid all those theories to avoid the further flaming, basicaly it wasn't much different back than than in France f.e. "old natives" mixed with one small tribe in one valley, another tribe in another valley, the demographic line being basicaly impossible to draw, with the exemption that the balkan countries lacked strong centralised goverment/state to further diminish those differences, instead those were basicaly increasing most of the time.
I don't think Bosniaks should have their own culture back than, eventhough I don't entirely buy that Bosniaks were only Serbs/Croats accepting Islam either, in EU4 Bosnia having Serbian culture is imo simply to simulate the fact that majority of population was Serbian back than and the fact Croatia never got a piece of that land for the EU4 period, so they tried to avoid the patriotic rebels from that area - am not aware about those part of the history back than to claim weather that is historicaly plausable or not.
ed84 has a good point on the subject, modern concept of a culture is a different case than it was in 1500
I'll avoid all those theories to avoid the further flaming, basicaly it wasn't much different back than than in France f.e. "old natives" mixed with one small tribe in one valley, another tribe in another valley, the demographic line being basicaly impossible to draw, with the exemption that the balkan countries lacked strong centralised goverment/state to further diminish those differences, instead those were basicaly increasing most of the time.
I don't think Bosniaks should have their own culture back than, eventhough I don't entirely buy that Bosniaks were only Serbs/Croats accepting Islam either, in EU4 Bosnia having Serbian culture is imo simply to simulate the fact that majority of population was Serbian back than and the fact Croatia never got a piece of that land for the EU4 period, so they tried to avoid the patriotic rebels from that area - am not aware about those part of the history back than to claim weather that is historicaly plausable or not.
ed84 has a good point on the subject, modern concept of a culture is a different case than it was in 1500
See, this is politics, and a very common issue in EU culture discussions
If it was up to me, I would merge them all into Serbo-croatian, or even better, South Slav/Illyrian Slav (less loaded terms). PS: Slovenian is not even represented in game, since their provinces are 'Austrian'.
A good way to know if we can consider there were a Bosnian culture is the language. It seems that a Bosnian language exist since at least 1189. And if I believe what Wikipedia says, a document from 1436 mention a bosnian woman ; the first dictionnary date from 1631. So I think we can speak about a real Bosnian culture for the EU4 period (I mean, it's not anachronistic). The problem is: is the Bosnian culture large, big, important enough to be included without caring for other little-scaled cultures? A lot of cultures that have a real existence and originality would not be larger than a province in eu4. I don't know if it suits the gameplay very well. There are a lot of "chinese" and "indian" cultures that are not represented in the game, even if they are certainly bigger and more "unique" than the Bosnian culture, though I think they could bring more to the gameplay...
edit: you know what, i dont want to get into this, at all. Screw it, whatever.
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Tricky subject....
But even if you forget the current status it just gets more complicated...
I guess, Bosnia should have it's own culture after the Turks came and mixed it all up, but then it wasn't a country anymore...
And in the start... I don't know too much but i do think that it was mostly a mixture of croatian and serbian folk, but under the same king...
btw,
Kotromanovići were not Serbian, as much as I know, or am I wrong? And they allways rule at the start of the game...
And the religion is even more complicated as you put it too...
So, i gues they just went with the game-friendly version of all of it and just put it under the serbian and orthodox... (as serbia and bosnia are independent at the time and are very playable - same culture, same religion, vasalise or conquer and you're done, no converting or culture change..)
As a Croat, i would like it more if they at least put one of the things (catholic or croatian culture) as it wouldn't be any more wrong than it is now
In general, it is just a game. You can't put everything in it...
Playing as Ragusa, historically, they would seek an ally in the ottomans and not an ally against them, what you can't do in the game.... But that was a historical exception not a rule so.. Just have fun
But even if you forget the current status it just gets more complicated...
I guess, Bosnia should have it's own culture after the Turks came and mixed it all up, but then it wasn't a country anymore...
And in the start... I don't know too much but i do think that it was mostly a mixture of croatian and serbian folk, but under the same king...
btw,
Kotromanovići were not Serbian, as much as I know, or am I wrong? And they allways rule at the start of the game...
And the religion is even more complicated as you put it too...
So, i gues they just went with the game-friendly version of all of it and just put it under the serbian and orthodox... (as serbia and bosnia are independent at the time and are very playable - same culture, same religion, vasalise or conquer and you're done, no converting or culture change..)
As a Croat, i would like it more if they at least put one of the things (catholic or croatian culture) as it wouldn't be any more wrong than it is now
In general, it is just a game. You can't put everything in it...
Playing as Ragusa, historically, they would seek an ally in the ottomans and not an ally against them, what you can't do in the game.... But that was a historical exception not a rule so.. Just have fun
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but.. but.. but.. the flame war was just about to begin.. awww.
Well, there is no Bosniak culture, only Serbian. Sorry, op.
Sorry to disappoint you guys, but ive had that conversation before (and even though couple of those were quite civil on this forum, for a change, shocking i know!!!1), and usually the only thing that comes out of them is the worst we Balkanites have within us. I wanna forget where i live, not be reminded of it every day when i check Paradoxplaza and start reading the love mail every one of these topics spawns.
This is usually a very difficult subject to discuss without descending into a flame war. I've had to close posts on this before, but as the discussion has been civil so far I'll leave it open for the time being.
Everyone please continue to keep a level head, and stay within the forum rules.
Everyone please continue to keep a level head, and stay within the forum rules.
The thing is, there are NO (real) Bosniaks only Converted Croats and Serbs, especially at that time.
All this talk of a separate "Bosniak" identity is nothing but a modern form of identity crisis.
But I do agree, that not all of the provinces in Bosnia should be Serbian, some should be Croatian.
Here is some reading material, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
Ps: I hope I do not offend anyone with my statements, I am merely stating facts that some modern historical revisionists are trying to hide.
The roots of most modern "Bosniaks" are Croats or Serbs, but if someone indentifies as something else, thats fine. People living in America don´t indentify as Europeans or English but rather American.
All this talk of a separate "Bosniak" identity is nothing but a modern form of identity crisis.
But I do agree, that not all of the provinces in Bosnia should be Serbian, some should be Croatian.
Here is some reading material, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croats_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina
Ps: I hope I do not offend anyone with my statements, I am merely stating facts that some modern historical revisionists are trying to hide.
The roots of most modern "Bosniaks" are Croats or Serbs, but if someone indentifies as something else, thats fine. People living in America don´t indentify as Europeans or English but rather American.
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Well, the original meme is "SERBIA STRONK !!! REMOVE KEBAB !!!
One of the greatest things the internet ever made.
External link removed - Seelmeister
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Yes, joking about genocide, high quality meme.
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This thread is beyond stupid as the notion of nationality didn't exist during the EU3 or EU4 timeline. Inhabitants of the lands in Bosnia didn't consider themselves Bosnian, Serbian or Croatian or whatever other contraption, they just considered themselves from that mountain valley, that village or town, that forest, or in service/in lands of x noble.
The Bosnia in the EU3/EU4 timeline however, can be considered a successor kingdom to Serbia, from a merely political perspective.
The Bosnia in the EU3/EU4 timeline however, can be considered a successor kingdom to Serbia, from a merely political perspective.