Jurchen tribe > Manchu > Qing help

[TheMali]

Few days ago I decided to try and form Qing. I found a guide and I followed the steps but every time I failed. The main problem was lack of funds for my troops. I just want to know what is the best way to get stable income as horde and then later on during the war not declare bankruptcy in a couple of years.

 

[bly08]

which guide? There are a lot of bad guides

 

[ChloePech]

Use debase currency. Constantly.

You get more than enough monarch points from razing- debase gives money and corruption, and corruption decreases unrest. You can pay it off later.

 

[puddingkip]

Don't get a stable income in your home land, that is impossible as a horde Conquer the gold mines from Buryatia and Oirat and Kazan, spend all your dip developing those. Then get a European capital, conquer India/Indochina and make that all into trade companies.

And don't be afraid to go bankrupt if you are a Ming tributary, Ming will protect you. Good way to pay off like 12000 ducays of debt, and lower your inflation as well

 

[Dominion]

I debased, used the estate and raised banners while declaring war in every direction.

Before declaring on Mongolia I declared on Ming. They had twice as many troops as I did, but someone told me "if you've raised banners you can just DoW" and... yea, it works.

Horde's are crazy strong as long as you keep fighting in flat terrain.

I grabbed everything that wasn't Mongolia before my DoW against Ming except for Korea where I only took 100% WS and didn't wait for a second war.

Just keep debasing, raze everything, etc. You'll be fine.

 

[TheMali]

which guide? There are a lot of bad guides

I followed this guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/64d6rx/120_guide_to_qing_of_china_and_not_dying/

 

[TheMali]

Don't get a stable income in your home land, that is impossible as a horde Conquer the gold mines from Buryatia and Oirat and Kazan, spend all your dip developing those. Then get a European capital, conquer India/Indochina and make that all into trade companies.

And don't be afraid to go bankrupt if you are a Ming tributary, Ming will protect you. Good way to pay off like 12000 ducays of debt, and lower your inflation as well

I bankrupted when I was no longer Ming tributary. I wanted to fire Unguarded frontier disaster.

 

[bly08]

need to show some screenshots or else it's too vague to answer.

 

[PhoenixG]

The unguarded frontier disaster is nice, but it isn't necessary. Like Dominion said, hordes units are really strong in the early game. Just sit on Beijing and siege it with ~30k stack and you can beat a 60k ming stack.

If you bankrupt yourself before even fighting Ming means the fight against the other hordes were sloppy and costly. Hordes vs hordes wars are decided by your first battle. That battle is what it counts and you want to stackwipe it. You want to have the same numbers + 4 extra horses for the stomping power. Go over your force limit and/or loan if need to. This way the war will be cheaper and it will be faster over. If the first battle didn't result in a stackwipe, chase and carpet siege it. Consolidate units so you don't be over force limit, and while waiting for the siege, pay only 50%.

The guide says don't raze some of the province. imo you should raze it, except the gold mine. The MP and horde unity is far more important than dev.
It also said wait till tech 5. More accurate wait till you have a tech advantage. imo it's better to fight at tech 4 while Ming is at tech 3. Since you get better morale + tactics. While tech 5 vs 4 is only better shock modifier.

 

[Dominion]

Reddit guides are usually... creative.
And a guide recommending you never raze as Horde is incredible in its own unique way.

That part aside, I did pretty much the same "mastablasta" did. At least regarding the opening.

Ate Haixi, ate as much as possible from Yeren, grabbed Buryatia, here you can develop the goldmine a bit if you want to, DoW on Korchin, ate the rest of Yeren, DoW on Korea, DoW on ming.

Had a mil tech 5 to 4 advantage. Some players like to attack Ming earlier with the 4 to 3 advantage.

You don't get that without razing.
And as with any AI nation the same old rule applies: Once you've won the first war the game is over for them. Every consecutive war will be easier for you because AI nations can't heal/repair like you do.

On top of that you'll get your 300 dev pretty quickly afterwards anyways. Even if you raze.

Gotta add that the idea with Oirat is nice though. But not really necessary. Nice idea nonetheless.

 

[bly08]

In the beginning I would raze everything that's not Manchu culture or the gold province. You can still get to 300 dev easily with Korean land. From then on you can either hit up Ming or stay as tributary and expand through Oirat towards Timurids. Debase at the start of the game and keep corruption at around 10 or so, adjust your corruption slider to high as you can afford. The extra unrest reduction is useful early. From the first war with Ming I highly recommend making a land bridge to Tibetan region instead of taking back your cores. You want to border as many tributaries as you can to white peace Ming repeatedly. Snaking towards India also gives you the option of either converting to or setting Hindu as syncretic faith.

The general goals for Manchu blobbing and for most hordes are:

1.) Win wars as fast as possible, which requires micro.
2.) Border as many fresh targets as possible.
3.) Stagger truces so that you have time to trucelock everyone necessary to prevent coalitions. A general guideline is, 3 years in between for great powers, 2 for smaller tags with multiple provinces, 1 for OPMs/fellow hordes/anyone with 1 fort. This means do not let truces with say, Ming and Persia end less than 3 years within each other unless you have the resources to wage both wars at once. In general, don't allow multiple truces to end at the same time unless you can trucelock everyone. Always peace out at the end of the month to be safe.
4.) Focus on one religious group at a time. Keep everyone else in fog of war. Do not ask for maps if you can't make tribute or DOW the people that are revealed.
5.) Use vassals before unlocking 45% CCR. If there are no good vassals to release, make tributaries out of anyone who do not block your path and feed them crap land that you've razed.

When you trucelock/piss off enough people, your war targets and plan of expansion will be very straightforward. The rest is economic/war management.

I recommend stating the richest Chinese coastal provinces and developing Colonialism there. If you expand through India early, focus on getting trade power in Bengal and collect there. If you go through Northern horde land, kill everyone in the trade nodes along the way until you get to Persia. In general it's easier to divert trade from Ming via Yumen and Samarkand than around Malacca through India.

 

[PhoenixG]

Eh.. don't debase at the start of the game. At the start of the game debasing cost more than your normal loan. You need to start debasing when your dev after autonomy correction is less than 50% of your actually dev. You can check your dev with autonomy correction at the tab were you embrace institution.

 

[Vulkandrache]

get stable income as horde and then later on during the war not declare bankruptcy

You will be running a deficit as a Horde, constantly. Learn how to make money with debasing, look for goldmines
and expand faster than you are able to do.

Playing a Horde is a race against your money. You need to outexpand your finances or your economy will crash and your country disintegrates.
As you conquer more land your finances will become less red and one day your budget will be positive, if you exclude the corruption spending.

 

[sigeena]

Micro your looting. Place your units in provinces that still has loot available. It helps in ducats and horde unity.

Started as Jianzhou.
Rival Haixi, took mission for Aigun. Rival the rest, preferably Yeren and Korchin. Ask to be tributary to Ming.
Dow Haixi, take Girin, Yehe and the mission target, humiliate for splendor. If Korchin Dow Haixi, change to vassalise Haixi so as to chain Korchin for humiliate. If Ming Dow Haixi, then humiliate Haixi.

Take Unite Jurchens mission, only core Girin and Aigun. Dow Yeren, take all of his shit except Udi and shit poor lands. Core Hinggan and take Form Manchu decision. You will instant core most of Yeren and Haixi lands.

Prepare to attack Korea. Attack and take most of their shit and money. If you haven't humiliate yet, now is the time. Otherwise raze his shit, destroy his forts and return his lands.

That should be a heady 10 years.

I would spend the splendor on extra cav limit and adaptive terrain. 95% cav is pretty cool. Especially if it's mostly banner.

 

[YuriiH]

I just want to know what is the best way to get stable income as horde

Hordes are intended to be unstable. They have highly autonomous land, so they don't receive much income from taxation and production (like other governments do).
Therefore, you need other sources of money:
(1) Gold Mines.
The easiest mines are in Buryatia and in Yarkand—convert the latter and develop both (for Renaissance and Colonisation).
Also Japan may get one-two gold provinces as an event.
Also somewhere in the Nothern West India there is a gold mine (Mewar, as I recall).
The major minus is the increasing inflation which makes your troops cost more.

(2) Trade and Trade Companies.
This is rather hard for a new player, because Trade system is rather complicated in EU4.
General Advices: conquer into Samarkand -> Persia/India and collect money at the end of your chain;
force your vassals to Transfer Trade to you;
move your capital to Europe and add Indian provinces to Trade Companies.

(3) Looting:
Isolate several Tributaries of Ming from each other.
Leave each of them with 4-6 provinces in different states (It may be my bias, but AI tends to develop more if it has two states),
Declare war and loot their provinces while not paying for your troops.
Take only money and War Reparations in the peace deal.
Come for more money in 10 years.

4) Non-horde vassals.
Feed them with newly conquered lands.
Remember to delete forts before giving the provinces, so your vassal does not get into a debt spiral.

5) Debasing.
Look for EU4 Debasing guide at Youtube. It explains why and when to debase.

And a guide recommending you never raze as Horde is incredible in its own unique way.

I tried similar run when the 1.20 patch came out, although I did raze some provinces: those which I did not want to statify. Still, it did not help much with money issues as a horde.

 

[Tavior]

I tried this a few time. Like OP I am having a lot of issues.

My biggest issue would be how do you know when it is safe to declare on Ming?

I had a nice running Jinxahou -> Manchu going. Then declared on Ming when they have 5 mil and I have 5 mil. My ruler is a 4 shock general. The problem is that they seem to have enough morale/troop to out shock my cavalry. Which isn't good because later on I run out of banner cavalry on the field.

This was when Ming had below 50 MoH and I had more than 300 dev. I couldn't last long enough to get positive war score. Nor banner cavalry to fill up to max forcelimit (going for 100% cavalry).

 

[Dominion]

My biggest issue would be how do you know when it is safe to declare on Ming?

Had no clue myself so I just checked mil tech, saw I had 5 vs his 4 and declared. Then won. I keep calculating, looking around, waiting for opportunities but you have to stop thinking, send that DoW and win.

Think they had 58k troops vs my 28k. The war was still easier than a normal war on equal footing with non-horde nations.

I can't really get into that kinda playstyle, but it does work, there's no denying it.

 

[Tavior]

I assume that army composition was regular cavalry + as much banner cavalry you can get your hand on?

I think they had little over 80k so it was kind of harsh.

 

[sigeena]

I even hired out my condotierri to Ming, found out that hired out troops gain loot and horde unity just the same, and kept them out of harm's way.

"Helped" Chagatai to win against Ming. By then, Ming had depleted manpower, so I started to reject sending tribute and once they canceled tributary, Dow almost immediately. Use mandate cb, but took lands, instead of mandate.

 

[bly08]

First mission selected should be to improve prestige if you have it, free 100 adm. I wouldn't humiliate anyone, the splendor bonus isn't worth nearly as much as 50 WS of land. Looting is useful only if you don't plan on taking and razing the land. Razing gets you the gold anyway, and the longer you sit there the more time is wasted.

Haixi -> Yeren -> Buryatia -> Korchin ->Korea, should be done by 1452. If you plan to go for Ming right after, start refusing tributary demands during the Korea war so you can DOW Ming asap. I played sloppy and declared on 1452, it could even be done before that. The longer you wait, the less time you have of tech 4 vs. 3 advantage. 4 vs. 3 gets you tactics advantage, 5 vs. 4 only combat width. 6 vs. 5 is fine but that comes much later.

In general I wouldn't do stuff like taking only or mostly gold instead of near 100 WS of land, or razing and returning a province. Your income and development/debase will outscale debt very quickly.

Mong Yang and Ming also have gold mines.